Kuroko no Basuke - Character Reference/Language Guide

[sinnesspiel]

I got drug into this series entirely against my will. This is a language reference guide more than a character guide so it's slanted more towards people familiar with the series and wanting to use it to understand Japanese characterized speech patterns than towards those looking for character insight. Statements made about characters or their relationships are more about their reflection via linguistic strategies. But maybe it'll offer insight into the characters too. Also useful if you're writing a fic or RPing and wonder "Crap, do I -san or -senpai this person?"

The guide assumes some basic familiarity with first person Japanese pronouns (watashi vs. ore, kare vs. aitsu, kimi vs. temee, etc.) and knowledge of what keigo (formal speech) is and fundamental kouhai-senpai dynamics, with full keigo to them assumed unless otherwise noted. I've also tried to include generalized notes where appropriate. I might make assumptions for certain defaults; will note them. Feel free to ask any questions.

Sources include the manga, anime, games (PSP, 2 3DS games, Cross Colors), CD dramas and novels. Haven't seen the stage shows. Will note if something is exclusive to one source or seems off. Will cite incidents of linguistic interest.

If your desired character's not listed yet, let me know and I'll try to do them sooner, otherwise I'm just sort of going in order of when they show up. Kind of. Some characters show up earlier but don't have a lot of dialogue or a span of interactions to analyze until later so it'd be fair to just call it random. If they're a minor character I probably won't do them unless they have distinct speech patterns worth analyzing (see Miyaji), or I'm otherwise asked. It's no problem if asked, in fact in an age where subs largely drop honorifics and chose localization over accuracy I'll be stoked to know fans cared about this stuff. It's just this page would be very long if I did every Tom, Dick and Harry.

Kuroko Tetsuya
First Person Standard:	Boku (Katakana)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Reference Name, Kimi	*Text book desu/masu keigo Japanese, even to peers who aren't upperclassmen. A bit abnormally formal in speech. Not flowery-polite. *Despite formality, still playful with speech. Attempted to use Kiyoshi's rough male slurred catch phrase, then slapped a grammatically incorrect "desu" onto the end. *In a game event, attempted to stand out more by adding a rough masculine emphatic "da ze" to the end of his otherwise still formally worded sentences. *Assumed female peer default reference; Momoi's the only sample. Matches his other speech trends. *Alex is -sanned like most adults would probably be. The use of the first name is probably a recognition that first names are the English standard and adhering to it rather than any step down in propriety. * Hanamiya is the only target of Kuroko ever breaking fully out of keigo or ever using a less than polite second person pronoun "omae," when telling him not to interfere with his Senpai's dreams. Kuroko uses proper keigo with him before that point and with all other opponents and people. He reverts to polite address and keigo with Hanamiya in all side materials set after that match.
Third Person Standard:	Reference Name, neutral or polite pronouns (kare, ano hito, etc.)
Defaults:
Males:	Lastname-kun
Females:	Lastname-san*
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	Lastname-senpai, Senpai
Other School:	Lastname-san
Captain:	Captain
Coach:	Kantoku (Coach)
Exceptions:
Alexandra Garcia:	Alex-san

Kagami Taiga
First Person Standard:	Ore (Katakana)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Omae	*Generally rough, slurring male speech style. * Besides features noted below, fully fluent, if slangy, Japanese with no typical "foreigner" linguistic markers or trends besides occasional Engrish use (called out in the anime as only coming out at specific, random times). *Attempting to properly keigo his upperclassmen, Kagami tacks "desu" onto things sometimes. This clashes with his slurring and other rude speech trends, and often grammatically incorrect. More than being stupid about grammar though, it's likely a sloppy afterthought trying to tack on the proper respect. This is more clear in the anime where you can hear the pause before the rushed "desu." In the manga, the 'desu' is often a hand-written addition to the speech bubble. *Modified 'ssu keigo to upperclassmen when not employing the desu fix above. (Less formal than full keigo but standard, particularly in sports groups.) *Kasamatsu snapped at him for using no honorific with him. This may suggest his default is no honorific. This is more normal towards people one talks about with no direct connection to, or thinks of primarily as a third party, and thus has less social obligation towards. *In games he uses -san towards upperclassmen from other schools consistently. Kasamatsu may have been a fluke or Kagami may have learned to apply it better since then.
Third Person Standard:	Aitsu/Yatsu, rude pronouns
Defaults:
Males:	Lastname
Females:	Lastname
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	Lastname-senpai, Senpai
Other School:	Lastname* Lastname-san?*
Captain:	Captain
Coach:	Kantoku (Coach)
Exceptions:
Himuro Tatsuya	Tatsuya
Furihata Kouki	Furi, Furihata
Alexandra Garcia	Alex (English standard)

Hyuuga Junpei
First Person Standard:	Ore (Katakana)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Omae, Kimi	*Generally rough, slurring male speech style. *Uses standard, non-rude third-person pronouns regarding Momoi and sometimes Riko (though he'll use ruder ones about her too). Probably his default when talking about girls. *Prone to unflattering nicknames at others directly. Tesshin/Iron Heart for Kiyoshi in a non-flattering way, Apologetic Mushroom for Sakurai, Chabouzu for Seihou's Tsukawa. The latter two relate to hair styles. Chabouzu is a pun on Tsukawa's buzz cut and his sycophantic smile. *Calls Kiyoshi 'Teppei' early in the manga, then Kiyoshi consistently after. Scenes rewritten with 'Kiyoshi' in the anime. Assuming the author didn't have their relationship felt out yet and dismissing as irrelevant. *Clutch Time: Slurs more words together, is generally saying more insulting things, will use the -yagaru form on verbs which implies insult to the one performing the verb. This mode's voice/demeanor is usually calm rather than yelling, and his yelling is usually normal mode, just angry. *D'aho, his insult of choice (Dipshit, Dumbass,etc.) is a slur of Do (major, emphasizing prefix) and Aho, a particularly harsh form of idiot (though it's the softer form in Kansai-ben, so keep note of that if you hear Imayoshi use it). * "Izuki, shut up" has shut up written in katakana. This could imply it's said so much the words have lost all meaning, that it's a habitual snap/catch phrase, that he's using a particularly harsh voice/tone change, or however else you want to take it.
Third Person Standard:	Aitsu/Yatsu, rude pronouns
Defaults:
Males:	Lastname
Females:	Lastname-san
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	N/A
Other School:	Lastname-san
Captain:	N/A
Coach:	Kantoku (Coach), Riko
Exceptions:
Aida Riko	Riko, Kantoku (Coach)
Aida Kagetora	Kagetora-san
Koganei Shinji	Koga

Izuki Shun
First Person Standard:	Ore (Katakana)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Omae, Anta, Kimi; broad range	*Generally masculine, minimal-slurring (mostly just nai to nee at times), non-rude casual speech style. * Uses socially smoothing particles or sentence endings not infrequently. Slightly more polished or soft speech tendencies than other non-rough casual male contemporaries. *Omae is used intimately rather than to assert superiority or roughness; starts out with anta/kimi towards new people. *Feels out appropriate position with same-year peers; called Kiyoshi Kiyoshi-kun, then when told Teppei was fine defaulted to Kiyoshi instead. *Probably uses less rude third person pronouns when talking about girls. *Lastname no honorific default about the somewhat familiar Riko; translator's impression from his politeness levels is that he would use -san for unfamiliar girls. (Set in the flashback; she's always Kantoku after becoming their coach.) *Same for other school's upperclassmen. He only uses upperclassmen's lastnames raw discussing them with others; honorifics are less vital when regarding a party one doesn't interact with directly enough to have social obligations towards. *Calling his captain by name is a reflection of his relationship to Hyuuga rather than of his linguistic strategy towards authoritative positions (compare with the Coach).
Third Person Standard:	Reference name, Aitsu/Yatsu
Defaults:
Males:	Lastname
Females:	Lastname, Lastname-san (?)*
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	N/A
Other School:	Lastname, Lastname-san
Captain:	Hyuuga (default)*
Coach:	Kantoku (Coach)
Exceptions:
Kogane Shinji	Koga
Furihata Kouki	Furi
Aida Kagetora	Kagetora-san

Aida Riko
First Person Standard:	Watashi (Kanji)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Anta	*Typical feminine speech style, which is more formal than standard male speech. Less formal than Kuroko's, with more conversational particles and sentence structures. *Heavy use of feminine "wa" ending particle followed by another ending particle (ne or yo). Uses "wa yo" almost as often as Midorima uses na no da yo. *Typically uses standard/polite third person pronouns, but uses ruder ones (aitsu, koitsu) when talking about someone negatively or about someone as a frustrating enemy. In other words, her speech style changes appropriately (and more often than the more consistent male cast). See linguistic notes. *Assuming upperclassmen at her own school would also be -kun instead of -san or -senpai. Assuming Female upperclassmen would get -san based on her speech style. *Strangers on the net with no age/standing context get -san, but no change in formality/keigo otherwise.
Third Person Standard:	Kare (neutral)
Defaults:
Males:	Lastname-kun
Females:	Lastname
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	Lastname-kun*/Lastname-san*
Other School:	Lastname-kun/Lastname-san*
Captain:	Hyuuga-kun (default)
Coach:	N/A
Exceptions:
Kiyoshi Teppei	Teppei
Linguistic Notes:
Despite a more flexible speech style as mentioned in the notes, she doesn't feel like she's switching between identities as a high school girl and a coach or going into a "clutch time" like Hyuuga. Feminine typical speech being softer by default allows more flexibility in situations calling for harsher reference. "Wa" ending a sentence on its own with a rising intonation is feminine and can be emphatic, softening, or exerting femininity. It can seem more debutante type feminine on its own. Thus often times the secondary ending particle (yo or ne in Riko's case) is less for its own sake and more to either modulate or strengthen the "wa.. As mentioned in Midorima's section, yo is an emphatic ending particle that can imply telling the listener something they didn't know. In Riko's case, the pair of particles combine to express femininity and instruction or authority as a coach. While potentially haughty (particularly in the debutante/oujo-sama uses), the socially conscious feminine aspect negates the condescending feel Midorima's use gives off (in conjunction with the "(na) no da" ending particles). It's a bit less frequent in side materials where she's not in a "coaching" position and is interacting with others not on her team as a result. Riko's language changes according to the situation, but despite her frustration with Momoi she never veers further than "this girl" into rudeness. Using harsher pronouns about girls ultimately comes off harsher than it would towards boys and would give a more foul impression of Riko's speech. This would both detract from her femininity and change the impression of her character considerably.

Alexandra Garcia
First Person Standard:	Watashi (Kanji)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Omae, Temee; rude pronouns	*Generally rough, slurring male speech style. * Fully fluent Japanese, basically identical to Kagami's speech patterns aside from owing nobody keigo and the notes below. Appropriate and frequent use of (masculine, rude) conversational particles and slurs, including more playful use of "temee" second person pronouns than Kagami (due to personality differences). *Only typical "foreigner" speech markers she uses are... - Use of "Western" exclamations ("Oh!" instead of "Ah!" or "Uwa!") - In voiced mediums, pronouncing loan words as the English word rather than putting a Japanese accent on it (example: ball instead of baaru). - Sometimes a "Western" locution of Taiga and Tatsuya. - In voiced medium, slightly "foreign" intonation sometimes. *The Japanese translations of her English are written in her Japanese speaking style.
Third Person Standard:	Aitsu/Yatsu, rude pronouns
Defaults:
Males:	?
Females:	?
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	N/A
Other School:	N/A
Captain:	N/A
Coach:	N/A
Exceptions:
Kagami Taiga	Taiga (Katakana)
Himuro Tatsuya	Tatsuya (Katakana)

Midorima Shintarou
First Person Standard:	Ore (Katakana)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Omae, Kimi*	*Same rude pronoun choices as much of the cast but lacks the rough aspect and makes word/grammar choices more in line with written speech. No slurring. His 'rude' pronoun choices come off as more condescending or haughty than vulgar or informal as it does with other ruder speech styles as a result. *Few samples of him with/about strangers to work with. Uses kimi with Kagami at first when pretending not to know of him, suggesting less rude language to/about unfamiliar people, though you could consider this putting on airs (which he was in pretending not to know him) and not reflective of his linguistic style. Translator's personal impression is kimi is his default with strangers. *Has a speech tick of adding (na) no da yo to the end of his sentences. The ultimate effect is his speech seems a bit rigid or like written speech. It's normal enough Japanese that wouldn't stand out if not for its frequency not fitting spoken Japanese trends. *Assumed female peer default; Momoi's the only sample. *Refers to Takao as Takao-kun once when trying to "cherish" him due to Oha-Asa telling him to cherish his friends. Even when attempting nicer speech in this scene, he uses the -tamae command form. It's nicer than the blunt command form but still distinctly asserts authority/superiority (and is a touch old fashioned).
Third Person Standard:	Kare/neutral pronouns; aitsu/rude pronouns for familiar targets
Defaults:
Males:	Lastname
Females:	Lastname*
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	Lastname-senpai, Senpai
Other School:	Lastname-san*
Captain:	Ohtsubo-senpai (Default)
Coach:	Kantoku (Coach)
Exceptions:
Linguistic Notes:
Na no da yo (Na) no da is a linguistic nominalization, turning the preceding sentence into a noun. It's red (da) vs. it's red no (da); the latter makes the fact of its redness the noun rather than "it." "It is the case that it is red." "Na" is included when the preceding portion ends with a noun and adjectival noun (na nouns) as grammatically necessary for nominalization. Da is a copula which means "is" and is necessary to make nominalization a complete sentence ("it is the case that..." instead of "the case that it's red.") Yo is an emphatic ending particle that can at times seem a touch haughty as it can imply telling the listener something they didn't know. This still works for questions and Midorima uses it in them. It just makes it grammatically questioning the state of things instead of the thing itself; same largely inconsequential difference as with declaratives that's only notable for style. The yo remains as if to emphasize how questionable the thing being questioned is and isn't improper or even quirky or odd Japanese (besides the fact of it being more unusual spoken Japanese, and the frequency Midorima uses it in). Do Your Best and Let the Heavens Do the Rest Midorima often uses the phrase "jinji wo tsukusu," which is most famously a clause of the proverb "jinji wo tsukushite, tenmei wo matsu." The literal translation is "Exhaust all human affairs and wait on heaven's decree." The full phrase is translated both in popular KnB translations and elsewhere as "Man Proposes, God Disposes." This is the translation of the phrase you may find in J>E dictionaries or sources that include proverbs. However it's worth noting that the English phrase carries a different implication than the Japanese phrase. The English phrase is a translation of a Latin phrase stressing the second half, that despite one's best efforts God's will is the final determining factor. It emphasizes things not going according to human planning. The Japanese phrase is more often a reference to a translation of a Confucian proverb which emphasizes the first half and the necessity of doing things to the best of one's ability, then trusting fate to follow through. Midorima's Image Song "Be In Earnest To Your Fate" (kind of the opposite of "Luck Be a Lady," notable in that Earnest (shinshi) is a homophone for Gentleman (shinshi)) translates this into English as "Do your best and let the heavens do the rest." This is closer to the usual Japanese use, and also to his use in series. He often uses the first half of the phrase, talking about people who have or have not exhausted all human affairs, or, in more plain speak, who have or have not done everything to make the best odds for success. The rest of Shuutoku has become familiar enough with the phrase to casually use it themselves, usually in talking about whatever Midorima's doing or on occasion, developing themselves. This is translated varyingly as "doing their best" or "doing all they can" or such, all of which are accurate. Knowing the full context may help in making connections in places where the translation differs for smoother English while referencing the same things. Other Speech Notes Midorima's only male ending particle usage is zo, and despite being an emphatic particle that implies superior status it isn't ever used during heated declarations, of which he has many in-series. Instead he uses it mostly in casual settings to add gravitas. "Lets go, Takao" is, if translated literally, actually an emphatic and superiority asserting form of "We're going, Takao." It's so short, brusque and emphatic that it takes on the feel of an order without using the command form (which he does use frequently; example, "Takao, shut up.") This gives a more controlled, stern masculine impression than the use patterns by other males in the series who use it. (Akashi is similar, but I won't get to him for quite a while at this rate.) Notably doesn't use the 'ze' masculine rough/wild particle most others with a "rude male" style do.

Takao Kazunari
First Person Standard:	Ore (Katakana)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Omae, Kimi	*Generally rough, slurring male speech style. *Modified 'ssu keigo to upperclassmen. (Less formal than full keigo but standard, particularly in sports groups.) *Friendly speech feel; frequent 'na' or 'ka' particles which invite commentary/involvement of the other party. *Playful style switching; eg. "desu/masu" use while still slurring to give off a "nice" feel (like a kids show host), etc. Style switching for "play" is part of that friendly feel. *Uses kimi with Kuroko on their first meeting. Probably defaults to this with new people. While this is more polite than a lot of others in the cast, the tendency is likely more of a 'friendly' feature than a 'polite' one. Similarly, his second person omae is likely more intimate than brusque. *Uses Lastname-senpai and just senpai to all of his upperclassmen in one third season CD drama, but uses Lastname-san across all other media.
Third Person Standard:	Aitsu/Yatsu, rude pronouns
Defaults:
Males:	Lastname
Females:	Lastname
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	Lastname-san
Other School:	Lastname-san
Captain:	Ohtsubo-san (Default)
Coach:	Kantoku (Coach), MaaBou
Exceptions:
Midorima Shintarou	Shin-chan, Midorima

Miyaji Kiyoshi
First Person Standard:	Ore (Katakana)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Omee, Omae	*Generally rough, frequently slurring male speech style. *Speech habit of throwing in threats at the end of sentences. "I'll cut you." "I'll kill you." 'I'll burn you." "I'll bury you." These are thrown out as casually as ending sentence particles. *Slips into a much less rude, merely informal speech style with Riko (without knowing it's her) in a game while gushing about MiyuMiyu. Guessing -san for females based on this, but it's very, very tentative. *Likewise, when pulled into Imayoshi's friendly pace, switches to the much less rude 'anta' second person pronoun. *Never uses a first person pronoun in the manga. Of all the things to have to look to side materials for...
Third Person Standard:	Aitsu/Temee, very rude pronouns
Defaults:
Males:	Lastname
Females:	Lastname-san ??
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	N/A
Other School:	N/A
Captain:	Lastname (Default)
Coach:	Kantoku (Coach)
Exceptions:

Murasakibara Atsushi
First Person Standard:	Ore (Katakana)	Notes:
Second Person Standard:	Reference Name, Anta	*Many childish speech markers such as dragging out words, emphatic but softer ending particle choice, conjugation and word choices. Speech has an air headed, almost valley-girl like impression. * Despite the use of the masculine "ore" his speech pattern is neither particularly masculine nor feminine. Being more in the "child" speech style overall negates most potentially gendering traits in favor of serving the more gender-neutral purpose (softening, emphasizing, etc.). *Baseline is more "polite" than most of the male cast in many habits, such as names as a second person reference (unless to a party he particularly doesn't like such as Kagami or Kiyoshi), less slurring, softer and and lack of brusque ending particles, but equally as informal as the standard rough types, etc. *However, does not use any form of keigo with any of his senpai or coach; this is contrastingly quite rude, but also a trait of child speech, not to modulate to social standing at all. *Switches to "omae" ruder masculine second-person patterns when pushed to an extreme, then "temee" when beyond mad. Even in this state, those he likes in any capacity (Kuroko, Himuro, etc.) are still referred to by name as their second person reference. Murasakibara's Omaes and Temees are actually meant hard instead of being intimate or a male rough default. *Nickname pattern usually takes a kanji of someone's last name and adds -chin on males and first names on females, but sometimes he'll take other portions or the full name. See exceptions list. *Couldn't determine a pattern of reference to people he's not very familiar with. His upperclassmen (besides the exceptions listed) are referenced as -senpai, but his coach gets nicknamed (despite likely frequent protest). The two he doesn't refer to as -senpai or by nickname (Kagami, Kiyoshi) he has an explicitly expressed antipathy towards. He can have normal, civil conversations with Kagami so this may be a fair reference base. Kiyoshi is a senpai, but he's consistently unhappy being in his presence in any medium so this is a shakier base for how he'd refer to other school's upperclassmen.
Third Person Standard:	Reference Name, Aitsu (rudeish)
Defaults:
Males:	Lastname, Lastname based-chin
Females:	Unknown, Firstname based-chin
Upperclassmen:
Same School:	Lastname-senpai
Other School:	Lastname (?) *
Captain:	Ago (Chin; anatomy, not sound)
Coach:	Masako-chin (First Name)
Exceptions:
Kuroko Tetsuya	Kuro-chin (First Kanji)
Himuro Tatsuya	Muro-chin (Last Kanji)
Akashi Seijuurou	Aka-chin (First Kanji)
Midorima Shintarou	Mido-chin; Katakana
Kise Ryouta	Kise-chin (Full Lastname)
Aomine Daiki	Mine-chin (Last Kanji)
Momoi Satsuki	Saccchin; Hiragana
Haizaki Shougo	Zaki-chin (Last Kanji)
Okamura Ken'ichi	Ago (chin), Gori(lla)

Comments

[severia]

This reminds me that I should learn Japanese more... I have several questions:

How rude is actually 'ore-omae' in general? You mentioned in the past that it's like calling people bitches, but since the western culture is more liberal I think people will have an easier time letting it aside (I might be wrong tho considering I'm not from the west. So forgive my ignorance). I guess I still haven't gotten the full imagery yet... how cringey is actually the 'ore-omae' usage in general Japanese population? Then does that mean that male speech pattern is basically pretty cringey?

If omae is rude then where 'omaesan' stands? I gather it's probably pretty old-timey tho, since I discovered it from Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu (WW2-post WW2 timeline). Many of the derogatory pronouns used to be honorary so it's probably not very rude.

Are there differences between the usage of ore and omae as they're written? If not literal, probably contextual? What are the readers supposed to think when they see whether ore is written in katakana, hiragana or kanji? Or is it just the author's style?

How impolite it is in general Japanese population to address someone without honorifics, like only lastname?

The impression I have gathered is that Japanese people actually don't use 'anata' that much. More often they'll just refer to someone using their name with -san to be polite. Is it true? Is it because it's an intimate term a wife often uses for her husband?

This ran long.

[sinnesspiel]

Different from English vulgarity is that it's not inappropriate to be heard talking in a crass way to somebody it's okay to be talking that way towards , by somebody who you cannot talk that way towards. That sentence came out convoluted. For example, using omae in front of your teacher towards your friend would be fine. Compare to in English where you largely shouldn't be saying foul language in front of a teacher at all. Likewise, there would be no loss of face for you were your friend to hear you speaking appropriately formally to a teacher. Japanese has more "levels" because Japanese culture/language (chicken/egg) recognizes more roles, whereas in English speaking cultures value is placed on being more or less one consistent self. There are fewer registers in English and even with all that exist, few people use many of them with the frequency a Japanese person would shift formality levels in a given day.

Omae is crass in common adult life; in the context of Shiki, the users are either intentionally rude, intimate, or old. Intentionally rude/angry is self explanatory. Seishin and Ozaki are an example of intimate. Ozaki and Seishin have very different speech styles, and even Ozaki mostly uses 'anta' or 'kimi' to his patients when not angry at them, but both use omae to each other. Old takes a little more explanation and it ties in with your omae-san question.

Omae-san is linguistic relic as you surmised. Without getting too deep into the history of the language, omae was a formal means of address until the mid 1800s. Like almost every other rude pronoun (temee, kisama) , it developed into rudeness due to being used sarcastically. I don't know about real world usage, I think it's likely quite out of fashion, but in fiction it would give me one of three impressions:

1. A period piece. Rakugo Shinjuu is a good example. Many Rakugo stories specifically try to capture an older era as well so you'd hear it in their Rakugo performances during which they're playing a character.

2. An old person, as a throw back to that period. For example, a fictional setting in which that time period of Japan didn't exist might still use it for the impression it gives to listeners of that age, and/or that a person is behind that world's modernity. It wouldn't shock me to hear it in Shiki. Even if nobody in that village was alive in the 1850s, the village is isolated and notoriously slow to change, so its linguistic habits may stick with some.

3. A quirky/folksy speaking character who, despite not being old or from a different time, has something of a grandfather/grandmother/father or otherwise older, familial feel. Whether this is a throwback to its old formal usage playfully, or a new attempt to soften it while maintaining its intimacy, etc. is up for debate, but I've heard it used to this effect on a rare occasion.


Much yakuwarigo is meant to give off a feel more than necessarily be realistic. That said, often characters drop the more extreme traits during internal monologue. For example, Kuroko from above and L from Death Note don't desu/masu inside of their own head. They're not putting on a face there.

To answer your other question, referring to someone without an honorific at all would be pretty rude. Or intimate. Like most Japanese, it depends a lot on context. It's acceptable amongst students, but as you'll notice in the notes above, most will feel out a completely unknown fellow student (say a transfer student) with honorifics or such first.

To give you an example, my default Japanese is rude. My social group was used to my habits but when I turned to a group of girls to ask a question with "omae-ra," the girls were startled and went white in the face as if I were taking them hostage. Being an English speaker, my tendency is to use one speech style unless I consciously think to switch. So in reality omae is pretty rude, but a fictional character established as using omae may use it near universally to maintain a sense of consistency to the audience, particularly if the character has the luxury of not needing to feel out comfort levels the way a real person interacting in a real world might. A character talking to some background girls might use omae if it were their default with most of the main cast, and they would only get the "Eeek!" reaction if the story were looking to emphasize the speaker's roughness or scariness. Alternately a character might shift speech style appropriately when speaking to some background girls. But no reader would think odd if they didn't unless it were pointed out, because there are things we accept in fiction.

Anata is a safe second person pronoun and in reality not too uncommon, but referring to them by name is more polite. If it doesn't seem commonly used, it's probably because Japanese can omit subjects and that it's just not as linguistically necessary to use second person pronouns as often as it is in English. Anata's not particularly intimate. The "wifely" version has a certain inflection to it (heavier stress on the "na"). Omae is the stock husband-to-wife equivalent, in fact. Such a couple is either old fashioned, stately and high class, or just plain corny, like using the tropes to quickly establish them as a married couple for a comedy sketch. Kind of like Honey and Dear in English, which people may or may not use in modern reality, but which could quickly tell an audience what the relationship is.

As for if pronouns are written in hiragana or katakana or kanji, it's not written in stone but it does give a different feel. I can only give my impression, but kanji-ore feels more adult, harder even. Katakana ore feels more wild. Hiragana ore almost feels calmer but also not quite adult. But then KnB has Midorima use katakana ore when I'd slate him for a kanji type, so this is only my general reading tendency as a whole. People read it different ways and different authors use it in different ways. I'm including the information for everyone to come to their own interpretations. So far I think everyone in KnB who ores uses katakana, whereas when I first started this I expected some variation. Midorima and Akashi surprised me--and I've read the series and played the games, so the fact that I didn't notice they katakana until I looked for it says something. What it says I don't know, but it probably says something.

Re: This ran long.

[severia]

Oh, new horizon. I've watched several of Dogen's videos, one which is titled 'phrases you shouldn't say in Japan'. He listed 'ore' and 'omae' the very first thing which gave me the impression that it's actually really cringey... or he's probably just warning us foreigners because we tend to know about Japan from anime/manga which sees a lot of ore-omae usage and thus will think that it's the norm, while in fact only a certain circle of people use it and you shouldn't say it to people in the other circles.

My native language has one formal register and one informal, which is to say it's still nothing like Japanese (regional dialects still apply so it's really based on where you live, so it's also not that simple but...) so this really explains a lot. By the way, is it acceptable for a teacher to omae his students? Probably intimately? I figure anta would be more acceptable though. Speaking about English speaking cultures, when you said value is placed on being a consistent self, what kind of consistency were you talking about? I ask this also to give me more imagery on the differences between the two cultures, and to feel out where mine kinda stands (An Asian culture that's not much like East Asian cultures partly given its heterogeneity) so I'd have more understanding when you give other explanations.

I'm glad you also know Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu because I've got more questions: Kikuhiko/Yakumo refers to himself as 'atashi' which is now largely a feminine pronoun. Pretty sure my ears caught that right so... could you give a context as to why is that? Is the pronoun largely used in that period of time (though I'm unsure if other people like Sukeroku also use it, I should rewatch more closely), or is it due to his being in a certain art industry, or is it just how he is?

More on the omae, I also have Shiki novels in Japanese and while I tend to get too impatient to try reading through it all (I don't really learn using JLPT system, but I think I'm still around N4 so the novels give me a lot of headache), I've caught something or two. I was shocked to find out that Takae omaes her own son when she refers to Kyouko as -san, is that also norm? But I couldn't imagine Miwako doing that to Seishin so to speak. Even Azusa -kuns Natsuno.

Ah, Toshio and Seishin's kind of relationship gives me most delight. This is probably the impression a foreign reader like me gathered, but it does make me think that while Toshio is awfully intimate with Seishin, and Seishin is most intimate with Toshio, Seishin still seems like containing himself a lot? 'Awkward and stiff' is what I'd use. It's like Toshio has reached him full distance but Seishin meekly only reached half or three/fourths of the way. They're two people with distinct speech pattern, and Seishin also uses 'ze' form a lot with him, but while Toshio omaes him all the time I only see that Seishin omaes him when he's pissed. When he's not pissed, he omits the pronouns completely which to me (whose culture uses pronouns all the time, to give you context) sounds particularly distant. If not then he uses Toshio's own name (the most polite form, though without honorifics). Their personalities also lie on the opposite sides of the spectrum, so while I get where they came from it also makes me wonder. This could be more about my own perception of their relationship rather than any linguistic/cultural takes too. What's your take on this, as someone fluent in Japanese?

So in a regular household, do husband and wife typically omae one another? I deinitely know that Toshio omaes Kyouko, and while I should reread on what Kyouko uses for Toshio I wouldn't be surprised if she also uses omae. Speaking about a wife using anata for her husband, to give me a proper imagery... it might be in Touya Akira from Hikaru no Go's kind of household. The mother refers to her own son as -san and they look pretty old-fashioned. Is that correct?

[sinnesspiel]

Teachers should avoid omae-ing their students. I'm sure it happens, and I'd think nothing of it in fiction because in media we accept that characters can get away with being more "characterized" than would be accepted in normal life. I think most of the teacher/coaches in KnB use it, including the brusque, manly speaking Masako. A real woman speaking such a way as a teacher in Japan would likely have certain problems for having such a distinct personality. We subconsciously accept linguistic extremes in fiction the same way we do character types and settings… even in hyper-realistic works.

I can't give meaningful data on real language trends; my interest in real language use is limited to how helpful it is in understanding fictional use and impressions. Anyone serious about effective, realistic Japanese communication and relationship building should not follow my examples. I think terrifying those girls was a funny anecdote and knowingly lack proper concern for others in much of my communication regardless of language. This poor personality of mine goes beyond the cultural tendency of English speaking cultures to value a consistent character in reality; to answer your question as best as I can, in most English cultures you speak the same to your boss as to your subordinates. If you speak notably more formally to your boss in most situation your subordinates or fellow coworkers would find you a fake and think less of you. In Japan, a certain level of respect is expected based on far more clear-cut hierarchies, not just in work but in other circles as well. Thus increased formality with one’s former upperclassmen from school in front of a group one is more informal with wouldn’t be seen as putting on airs the way it would be taken in English if somebody adopted a notably different speaking style with in front of a group they’re more “hard” with. Of course even in Japanese one can overshoot and be called out to the same effect, but because social roles are more rigid, variation by role is more forgiven, if that makes sense.

As an example, even Kagami who’s one of the roughest speakers in the KnB series, who lived abroad as a youth and thus isn’t as prone to naturally slipping into respectful speech styles, will keigo his senpai, or at least attempt to with the awkwardly tacked on desu after an otherwise informal statement. To quote one of his song lines: “Japan’s vertical society at work.”
This leads me back to the context in which you're asking about omae. This is a page explaining the language of modern high school friends and rivals in a sports setting. It leads me to emphasize that there are times and places this language appropriate or even standard. In general not using ore and omae is good advice for real, civil life. But also know that when you cross it a lot in media, you're not necessarily watching a series about a bunch of foul mouthed hoodlums. Most sports anime are not Roku de Nashi Blues.

Switching gears over into Shiki, Ozaki Takae’s usual second person address for her son (and everyone) is the stiff, formal anata. I only recall her using it in one scene off the top of my head, when Ozaki’s dead tired and she asks if he’s really alright; in that moment it’s a bit more intimate. It’s also reflective of an older fashioned speech style as mentioned previously that she can use it at all while keeping the otherwise ostentatious and very speech habits up. Rather, if she were angry with him, she would surely slip into the more distant anata as her style of anger must always maintain her sense of propriety and superiority. Likewise, Kyoko-san being called such is a distancing formality.

Omae isn’t used by wives towards husbands, or at least not stereotypically; in the anata-omae romantic dynamic, anata would be used by the wife, omae by the husband. If the wife is abusive, rural/rough talking, or the characterization is trying to feel quite old fashioned (see Takae’s case), she might omae him. But it’s not the standard. An Omae-Omae pair would be interesting for it being unusual, whereas an anata-omae pair would just be a quick way of establishing a norm (“oh, these two are married”) to get on with the rest of the story, skit, etc.

I can recall Seishin using omae with Ozaki in a few casual scenes too. Rather, he never uses anything else towards him. However it’s notable he never uses the ruder third person pronouns about him that would go in with a casual omae using rough speaker, it’s always “Toshio is…” in his proper fairly modest fashion. Thus, my conclusion is that Seishin’s omae towards him is purely intimate. And as a disclaimer since I know we both ship it and others may read this, I don’t mean intimate in the shipping sense but in the more general sense as I do when talking about Takae’s omae-ing him in a rare moment of intimate, potentially genuine concern rather than her more typical lecturing pomposity.

Parents refer to their kids by name-san, name-kun, name-chan, etc. all revealing their own formality as well as their relationship level in a complicated little web of factors. In general, -sanning your own kid is fairly proper, and proper families do tend to hold onto old traditions and manners. Even so I've never heard of a father -saning their children, so one should consider if it's as much about the mother's own sense of formal role as it is about her relationship to the child. Takae doesn't -san Toshio, but I have my suspicions if he were to take to her chosen formality and lifestyle more that she would. He's just not playing his part enough for it to work.

Kyouko uses anata by default, in a similar prissy feminine style; a quick check into the anime had her call him anata, but if I comb through the novel I’d not be surprised to find an anta. The anata-omae dynamic here is probably more of a reflection of their speech styles in general than anything towards each other. The amicable and mutual emptiness of their marriage is a plot point.
Back to Seishin and Ozaki, are you sure Seishin uses ze? I’d need a chapter reference on that, I’m pretty sure that one would stick out to me. I also don’t think Seishin’s avoidance of pronouns is significantly distant so much as it’s a somewhat standard trait of Japanese. Though I do agree with your interpretation of Seishin and his speech as a touch distant, this is just not something that I think particularly supports that conclusion which we share.

As I mentioned above, I actually had to go to side materials to find a first person pronoun for Miyaji Kiyoshi in KnB. I was positive it was ore, but even if he’s a minor character he made it into the top 10 popular characters in the third poll, in a series with over 15+ decidedly “regular” if not major characters, so he’s not a null presence. To not be able to find a single instance of him using “I” shows how common it is to drop contextually assumed subjects or objects in a Japanese sentence. I’ve read some Japanese writings observe that “straight” translated English words almost feel “like a fight”, with an exchange of “you” and “I” blows if not translated into more natural Japanese that would drop those words that are grammatically necessary in the original English.

Kikuhiko

[sinnesspiel]

Forgot your "atashi" question! That's another one of those bizarre context related things; atashi was originally a humble usage form from the old Edo days when rakugo was in its prime, the time period rakugo performers largely harken back to in their craft. To truncate the history terribly, it was used by rakugo performers in the day because they were, like jesters, lower than low on the totem pole. Thus rakugo performers hold onto it for a certain historical significance from before it became feminine.

It became feminine due to a surge of use in all girls schools and such, where it was considered rather vulgar and inappropriate, as were many other now popular fictional feminine speech markers. The association shifted towards "young girl" in general, with some speech traits fanning out into, quite paradoxically, well bred oujo-sama feminine speech. But that's an essay unto itself. But in summary: yes, is the same root atashi, and no, it's not feminine in use by rakugoka.

Re: Kikuhiko

[severia]

Hmm, I think there goes the essential difference between western (especially English speaking) and eastern cultures: the west seems to put great importance on individuality and the east on society. It's like, knowing the general idea of it but just realizing how it plays into daily life examples? Not saying one is better or worse, it's just is. Either way it's an interesting difference. (I know you relate quite a lot to Toshio, but aside from sharing several worldviews I have a vague idea that your disregard for proper communication with others is another similarity... interestingly)

This is another topic, but I think Toshio must have stuck out a lot given his personality and this is the backwards Sotoba we're talking about. He's brash, he's totally rude, he's also competitive in a really petty and salty way. The novels did mention how disapprovingly many of the villagers find him (especially the elder ones) but it just hit me recently how he might've stuck out like a sore thumb potentially. Someone like him doesn't really conform, at least not in a regular way it seems. Makes me wonder if Seishin as a kid used to find much solidarity in that, as someone who also exists pretty awkwardly among the society on top of having similar background (though that kind of view would be pretty off since Toshio definitely doesn't see his own self like Seishin sees his) Or I'm probably just salty that their relationship has a lot of unexplored potential...

Um, yes that's the scene that I mentioned. Pardon me but I basically skip the whole novels and only read the scenes I like because they give me a lot of headache... so thanks for the clarification. Would be really nice if you do the Shiki version of this post but I won't force you (probably someday? *wink wink wink*)

Now on to the omae again; I have to drill into my mind that omae isn't only rude, it's also intimate. But anyway, I got the feeling that I might be more skeptical about the nature of our ship's relationship than you do, especially from Seishin's ends? Or did we already disclose that? Not to delve deeply into 'does he like him or does he hate him' kind of discussion all over again, I think it's just my skeptical and difficult-to-get-intimate personality which has warped my perception a lot. It's nice to know that it seems to be a standard Japanese thing more than anything however.

On to Seishin using -ze form: uhm this will probably sound doubly stupid but it's probably my mistake since I'm not able to distinguish much grammar yet: it's Seishin saying 'naze' and I dumbly thought it was a distinct male speech pattern. I just looked up the word and it's apparently a standard form, even nande is more casual. I will be more diligent and detailed from now on... aaahhhh

Speaking about KnB, I was once quite into that series though now I've moved on. I was surprised to see Miyaji Kiyoshi's name in this post since I totally overlooked him, in fact I was thinking: "What, is there a Kiyoshi that's not a Teppei?" and even I forgot that in Teppei's case Kiyoshi is a surname and not a given name...

As always, thanks for your explanations!

[sinnesspiel]

Toshio stands out for his speech style, they tell us as much in the narrative a few times, but it's more modulated and realistic than most animangame characters. Shiki's a fairly realistic series, the whole horror-fantasy aspects aside, all the more so in the novels. The fact that he, who is quite mildly rude in comparison to many shounen protags, is considered notably rude is a better reflection of real languistic norms. I'm cartoonishly worse than him in practice.

I intend to do a Shiki post like this, it's just a daunting prospect because the cast is bloody HUGE, and the variations are a lot less quirky than KnB. KnB is a series I did not like when I first watched it, which I honestly still think is a bloody terrible narrative whose big sales point is fujobaiting by making enough intentionally marketably, absurdly quirky characters and "just gay enough but not quite" relationships that the odds of at least ONE of them hitting a viewer's moe sweet spot is high. Trying to differentiate so many characters, many of them are given zany speech quirks. Long story made very short, in translating side materials for friends or others by request, it got me. It hits my linguistic sweet spot in its playing with speech styles to try to distinguish its huge cast, and I am fudanshi. Despite hating the feeling of being pandered to, certain characters got their hooks into me, including ones I initially declared "they're so stock pandery and obvious I will definitely never care about them." All I can do is throw up my hands and accept that I have terrible taste.

I love Shiki and sincerely think all three media of it are masterpieces of their genre. At worst I disagree with making Natsuno the protag and view it cynically as a marketing move. I can't say, despite much more interest in Toshio and Seishin, that it wasn't gripping or that it didn't make me care about he and Tohru. The costume designs in the latter half are blatant tie-ins with some fashion company which sold the crazy assed outfits the cast got slapped in for the last stretch. But I can also see at least some artistic merit to it in how it was only applied to those who were Shiki/Jinrou and were living incarnations of incompatibility with Sotoba as the battle between the two sides hit a perfect power balance. The Shiki who held on to more of their Sotoba connections and humanity didn't wear anything absurd. Even when talking about the two points of criticism I have for it, Shiki is great.

I love KnB but you wouldn't know that from the way I talk about the series as a whole. Almost anything good I have to say about it is couched in "ignoring this gaping problem in favor of this specific, pandering moe element that nabbed me..."

It's been a while since we did Shiki talk on the pair. I think both of them have a certain disconnect from everyone and everything, but I also think they have a connection to each other for that fact, one that mere history can't explain as third wheel childhood friend Mikiyasu--and indeed much of the village who grew up with them are just not part of that intimate, two-man club. Both are nihilists, and I think both understand each other's nihilism, and that that's significant because the nothing of each man's nihilism is his own. They are not seeing the same nothing, even while knowing the nothing the other is seeing. I also think Seishin's full of shit. That about sums it up.


Don't feel too bad about the naze/ze thing. I tend to use 'naze' more than nande, and remember a specific incident thereof when I was asking someone some question on a topic I don't remember.

"Naze da?"
"Eh? Nande?" she blinked, re-wording mine to the word that served the purpose of the question in her head in the way we often do when considering an unexpected question.

But I interrupted asking if I'd actually made a linguistic mistake as I thought it was a correction, which puzzled her even more as she tried to articulate why she, when reposing the question to herself, changed the wording. Naze wasn't incorrect, and we waffled over whether it was unnatural or not. Certainly a bit stiff. She would think as I was painfully informal that I was more the nande type, but that naze also fit as I can come off demanding and brusque. Anyway, it was a good learning thing. Think of it like that. You've learned something about Seishin in that he's a naze type. Or it was a naze scene. Seishin's the type to use nande generally, but he also presses some appropriately heavy questions to Toshio and will put the full weight of them into said questions. He's full of shit but he's rightly got Toshio intellectually cornered a time or two in the novels.

[severia]

I think I have more interest for real world reflection than you do then, even if I still hugely immerse myself in fiction. I think the purist me dislikes it when fiction is way off the mark when they also involve people, society and civility and the foundation for that is based off real life? But this is fiction we're talking about lol... ah, please excuse me. Anyway, I think that's also the reason I love Shiki: that it's realistic enough for me to see it as the gateway for actual Japan, at least some aspects of it. It's better than many at giving me proper impression of Japan I'm sure.

Yay, I'll be looking forward to it!! Speaking about KnB, it's indeed a huge fujoushi mine. Even now my cousin is still retweeting BL-ish fanarts of Kagami/Aomine and my sister used to write a lot of fics in our native language and she used to go to meetups with fellow shippers from other cities, even. (the Indonesian fandom is a HUGE one. I'm way more involved with English fandom for any kind of work but I think I often underestimate how obsessed Indonesians could get). The purist me who hates being pandered to for the sake of being pandered still sucked up to it too, a few years ago. Speaking about being a fudanshi, I'm wondering if there's any kind of experience with dealing with us fujoushi? It's not often that I meet one so I want to ask, and you do immerse yourself in (at least a few, in my estimation) works that are full of fujoushi.

Oh, I do understand. Given how the manga was geared, I used to suck up to Natsuno/Tohru and overlooked Toshio/Seishin almost completely. I even had more interest for Seishin/Sunako at first given how sweet I found them, and I didn't think I thought of them as anything more except that they were kinda sweet -- but then I discovered a tumblr fanart many years ago that totally ruined them for me, thank you very much. I have to say that I would totally ship Seishin/Sunako if only she were an adult-bodied woman though... they're a match made in hell. Then I found out the novels and the rest is history.

I'm hugely novel-based, but I guess I still have sweet spot in my heart for the animanga even now given I discovered them before I did the novels. Living in the tropics, I sympathize with the awfully hot summer feelings the manga gave me (the black-and-white drawing style really pulled that off) It made the whole story more sympathetic and familiar, which I really love. I also cannot say that I totally dislike Fujisaki's character styles because I was also into Houshin Engi before I was into Shiki. I shit on the man a lot but I'm actually really grateful...

I wonder what you like about Toshio/Seishin though, or I probably still cannot wrap my mind around the fact that someone could love a ship but hate one of the two parties that makes it? Is it perhaps the exclusiveness (which I agree and also love)? I wouldn't call Seishin full of shit but I agree that he's really hopeless, and as much as I relate to his brand of idealism I cannot help but agree with Toshio on a lot of things, especially when he cornered Seishin because those moments are relevant and valid. Airlynx once mentioned that were Seishin to discover what kind of lot the Shikis are like he'd come to hate them too, and I certainly agree. It's precisely the kind of regulated order he sees as not ideal just like how Sotoba is. It's much of a self-discovery, but that he twisted his hatred for Sotoba as a kind of morality towards Shiki is kinda regrettable too. I don't really think it's that simple, but guy would feel a lot better at least if he could admit that feelings aren't always the same as values. Well, that's from my perspective. From the perspective of more realistic people like Toshio though, he has a lot of issues certainly though I still don't understand at times precisely what and why.

Your opinion on them actually understanding each other to understand what the other is seeing even while not seeing it is certainly interesting; I think I'll reread their chapters to find out because I'm probably more skeptical about that. That part of Seishin wondering why the hell he could love someone but hate them at the same time is funny enough however; I do wonder if people would indeed perceive it as him having a thing for Toshio if only he didn't mention Miwako at all. The Japanese word literally meant what you translated though. I love how literal you are.

[sinnesspiel]

Others have told me horror stories of being called homophobic if they don't see/ship certain pairs, some writers do just pick up a hot character and make them Gay Self Insert Fetish Pillow Queen #5, and some guys are more touchy about their own sexuality than I am (one fujoshi I know is convinced I'm a closet gay and argues as much at me at opportunity, and it’s not an uncommon charge even if most aren’t so aggressive about it) so I understand why some fans have a negative image of them. I think positively of fujoshi, most of my best fandom experiences have been with them, and I think they trend slightly less towards self-insertion than the “normal” side of fandom because it’s mostly girls interested in guys so the gender barrier usually helps keep that line intact. This allows us to have similar views on what we like in pairs, and themes we like in fiction. Coincidentally, I don’t mesh well with fujoshi about canon yaoi series, but usually we just agree those series aren’t for me and they gush about them with people who like them instead. At worst I get poked for a translation, and I'm cool with that.

That I don’t do more social social media like Plurk or Tumblr and do most of my conversations one on one allows my relationships the luxury of not having to see stuff relating to a given disliked fandom or pair or such unless we really want to make the effort to bring to each other a subject we both know one don’t like. Even here on DW, while I go on at considerable length and it’s a public medium where anybody’s welcome to jump in, it’s not like you have to unfriend me or deal with thirty plurks, posts, whatever on your dash a day about Ozaki/Seishin, or like you have to deal with reading about it if you want to read my translations or notes. From this post, one has no bloody idea what KnB pairs I ship, which characters I like/hate, etc.

I ship Ozaki and Seishin despite not liking Seishin because I like that dynamic. I ship in the sense of wanting an interesting relationship, not necessarily the healthiest or happiest one (which is ironic as all my KnB pairs of choice are fluffy as a cotton candy hell). I also tend to like dark fiction and unhappy endings; it’s not something I want in reality, but it’s a realm of ideas I like to explore. I LOVE Ozaki’s completely loveless marriage, the fact of this dark reality of many relationships, flying in the face of the “common sense” that a person must surely have SOME special affection for their spouse, is a reality that I think too many people run from, need the luxury of running from, and certainly something I don’t wish on any real people just to explore it. It’s not a reality I want someone in such a situation to have to tear open and explore at the cost of the illusion they or their family unit may need. But in fiction…

This is also why I'm not into many canon yaoi series; canon romances are often more about audience wish fulfillment at worst, the "healthiest" match at best. The het pairs I like tend to be controversial ones because “interesting” is what I pick my pairs on. For example, I love the OreImo ending. Also the Honey and Clover ending. The fan favored pairs and the pairs it looked like the writer was going for, which would be the "healthiest" and most wish fulfilling for readers self-inserting into a character (the guy in OreImo, the girl in H&C) don't happen. If I were gunning for a romance for myself or a real person, of course I’d want wishes fulfilled, of course I’d want the healthiest relationship possible. But in fiction…

[severia]

Is it bad to be in the opinion of 'while I don't deny that BL has its own issues, homophobia is something else (and it's a big thing, it just doesn't really have a place here) so it shouldn't be involved in BL and imposed on fans so easily as if they committed a sin'? Homophobia is something everyone needs to work towards, but well, everyone has their own pace and you'll just sell it too short if you fling the words at fandoms so easily. It's freaking fandoms for freaking fictions. Sometimes I do wonder about people who treat others too harshly because of a perceived homophobia (it's different if they truly hurt people of course) -- that they might have no idea what these people they so harshly judged are going through. And if people are closet gay and they need time to process that, that should be okay. Forgive me but sometimes I wonder if people like that, who fling the word so easily and impose that to be out in the open is the only way to go realize that some people don't come from a society as 'free' as theirs. One word, and then you're ruined.

Glad to know you mostly have good fandom experiences. I still do Tumblr, and while it gave me bad experiences I do have good ones from it. I saved numerous references there, and my favorite manga/manhwa are still being updated there so I don't think I'll part with it soon. At the very least it served as a reminder that I should never end up like certain brand of extremists only found on Tumblr. My Twitter is thankfully pretty filtered because I'm also not one to engage with lots of people to begin with.

Oh I do agree with that sentiment. I forgot, we probably already disclosed in the past that ships are for what readers find interesting most of all? And there's probably not a sane person who thinks they still could get a happy pair from a series as depressing and hopeless as Shiki anyway. When you want depressing Shiki is certainly the way to go.

Well, loveless marriages aren't completely uncommon, no? I think it's the naive ones who think that marriage primarily needs love, or that only it can sustain a marriage. What kind of love are we talking about here, too? I think you don't need special romantic affection for your spouse. I'd say general love is enough, though at least you gotta like them or find them tolerable. More than any special kind of love I think marriage requires the willingness to have sex most of all, which means it'll be more bearable if the spouses are sexually compatible. That really depends on how you see marriage/committed relationships, but for me personally loyalty and commitment are what make good and lasting marriages. Add a good portion of faith however.

Marriages in Shiki are good portrayal of reality, that's for sure. People might not like it, but it's just is. We have the Ozaki and Muroi households who exist pretty much only to continue their respective line. Toshio didn't marry for love and so did his parents. Then we have Natsuno who hates his parents for not marrying -- which is also something many people don't want to admit, I guess. The Tanakas, the Maedas, and so on.

I also admit that I'm often on fence on healthy versus interesting, but in fiction I tend to choose interesting over healthy like you do. I know the fear of being judged for problematic tastes but fictions exist for a reason, after all. Those people who scream too much too often about people's tastes should work on something in real life, I guess. Surely we're not gonna look for 'those problematic tastes' if we're looking for our own romance, right? Like, for me an intense kind of obsession, 'I'm gonna kill you and then I'll kill myself/I'm gonna eat you so we're gonna be one forever and always' kind of pairings in fiction look so damn appealing but that's precisely the kind I have the least energy for in real life.

In all honesty, these days more than in the past I find that I don't care much for romantic relationships in shows I really like, even if I still largely look for ships? Probably I'm just a sucker for ambiguous relationships, or relationships that are actually not much romantic. I don't ship Abeno and Ashiya from Fukigen na Mononokean, I don't ship anyone from Barakamon, I don't ship Kikuhiko and Sukeroku together (that show is already perfect in my opinion) and I probably don't want something so mind blowing from Toshio/Seishin. For me personally, cheesy is for shows I'm not very much into, obsessive is for something in between, and for shows I'm really into I don't even want much out of it. Um, I guess in my case my tastes in fiction still mostly follow what I myself wish to see in real life...

Shiki

[(Anonymous)]

Could you please continue translating Shiki? I'm dying to see what happens to Megumi in the end.. Does she get ran over by a car like in the manga or does she escape and live her dreams? Also is there any physical description of Megumi in the novel? Does she have pink hair there as well?

[crabg1rl]

The use of ダマレ is probably meant to highlight the similarity to ダジャレ.

Your HTML is broken, the cut is totally borked.

I'm in a bit of a rush today so I'll probably discourse more later, but this was a very interesting read.