sinnesspiel | Shiki Infomaps

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shiki infomaps

Shiki Infomaps

Characters names are color coded to their domicile region.
Characters whose names are in a	light grey box	live outside of Sotoba
Characters whose names are in an	uncolored box	's domicile region are unknown.
Characters whose names are in a	dark grey box	are deceased before the start of the novel

Colors are based off of their place of residence/status at the beginning of the story, or their first home in Sotoba if they were outside of Sotoba at the start; if anyone moves within or out of Sotoba, this is not noted in the chart. If someone's residency or status is a potential spoiler, it will be left blank. However, characters whose existences may be spoilers will still be included.
Characters whose family structures are completely unknown will be put alone. Families in which no pictures are available for anybody will not include dummy space holders. If somebody's family tree cannot be made, but they work at one of the locations specified in family business trees (Temple, Hospital, Contractor's firm, etc.), they will be put there and only there.

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江畑 Ebata

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後藤田 Gotouda
Gotouda Kumi


Gotouda Kyouko

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行田 Gyouda
Gyouda Bungo		Gyouda Etsuko

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長谷川 Hasegawa
Hasegawa		Hasegawa Chiyomi

	(Son)

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支倉 Hasekura Itoko

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広沢 Hirosawa
Hirosawa

	(Daughter)

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広沢 Hirosawa
Hirosawa Toyoko


Hirosawa Takatoshi

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広沢 Hirosawa (Ko-Hiro or Small-Hiros)
?

?

?		Hirosawa Mayumi (nee: Ohkawa)

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広沢 Hirosawa
Hirosawa Takafumi		?

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猪田 Inoda Motosaburou

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石田 Ishida
Ishida		Ishida Chie

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伊藤 Itou
Itou		Itou Ikumi


(Son)	(Son)	Itou Tamae

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加藤 Katou
Katou Yoshihide		Katou Sumie

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加藤 Katou
Katou Yukie


Katou Minoru		?

	Katou Yuusuke

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桐敷 Kirishiki
Kirishiki		Kirishiki ?

		兼正　At Kanemasa
	Kirishiki Seishirou		Kirishiki Chizuru

		Kirishiki Sunako

	Family Physician	Staff
	Ebuchi	Tatsumi	Kurahashi Yoshie

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Funeral Home

Hayami

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小池 Koike
		Koike Masaharu


?		Koike Yasuo


Koike Touko		Koike Ikuo

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	Kunihiro Yasue


Kunihiro Ritsuko		Kunihiro Midori

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	Kusunoki Masaya	Kusunoki


?	Son	Kusunoki Shouji

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前原 Maebara Setsu

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Rika's Parent(s)	前田 Maeda
Unknown			Maeda Iwao		Maeda Tomiko

Maeda Rika		Maeda Tokio		Maeda Isami		Maeda Motoko


	Child(ren)			Maeda Shigeki		Maeda Shiori

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松村 Matsumura
Matsumura Yasuzou


Matsumura Yasuyo

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松尾 Matsuo
	Matsuo Yasushi


	Matsuo Takashi


Matsuo Shizuka		Matsuo Jun

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松尾 Matsuo
Matsuo Seiji		Matsuo Yukako

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本橋 Motohashi Tsuruko

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村迫 Murasako
	Murasako Munehide		Murasako Ryouko


Murasako Chizuko	Murasako Munetaka	Murasako Hideki	Murasako Masao


Murasako Hiromi	Murasako Chika

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Murasako Mieko		Murasako Hidemasa		Gotouda Fuki (nee Murasako)


	(Daughter)		(Son)	Gotouda Shuuji

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三上 Mikami

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三村 Mimura Yasumi

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Pharmacy

森 Mori

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	室井 Muroi
	Muroi Shinmei		Muroi Miwako (nee Yamamura)

		Muroi Seishin

Temple
Head Monk	Acting Head Monk	Apprentice of Head Monk		Part-time Visiting Monk
Muroi Shinmei	Muroi Seishin	Tsurumi	Ikebe	Sumi

Parish Representative Committee		Female Volunteer	Odd	Volunteer
President		Coordinator	Jobs	Step Sweeping
Tamo Sadaichi	Yasumori Tokujirou	Yasumori Setsuko	Tadokoro Katsue	Chiyo


			Tadokoro Mitsuo

Mourning Crew Regional Managers
Monzen		Kami-Sotoba	Sotoba	Shimo-Sotoba
Yamairi		Naka-Sotoba	Sotoba	Shimo-Sotoba
Yasumori Tokujirou	Takemura Gouhei	Koike Masaharu	Murasako Munehide

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Mizobe Temple Family
	Head Monk


Asst. Head Monk		Sumi

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田丸 Muta Sumie

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武藤 Mutou
Mutou		Mutou Shizuko


Mutou Tohru	Mutou Aoi	Mutou Tamotsu

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中埜 Nakano

Nakano

Nakano Wataru

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徳 Nori Yoshino

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永田 Nagata

Nagata Kiyomi

(Daughter)

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西田 Nishida

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大川 Ohkawa
Ohkawa Gigorou	Ohkawa Namie (nee ?)


	Ohkawa Tomio		Ohkawa Kazuko	Ohkawa Choutarou		Ohkawa Norie


	Ohkawa Atsushi	Ohkawa Yutaka	Ohkawa Mizue		Ohkawa Shigeru

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太田 Ohta
Ohta Gouzou


Ohta Kenji

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太田 Ohta Michiyo

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大塚 Ohtsuka
Ohtsuka Kichigorou


Ohtsuka Takayuki		Ohtsuka Hiroko

	Ohtsuka Yasuyuki

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尾崎 Ozaki
	Ozaki ?		Ozaki Takae

		Ozaki Toshio		Ozaki Kyouko

Ozaki Hospital
Medical Director	Office Staff		X-Ray Technician
Ozaki Toshio	Mutou	Towada	Shimoyama

Nurses
Hashiguchi Yasuyo	Isaki Satoko	Kunihiro Ritsuko	Nagata Kiyomi	Shomi Yuki

Part-timers
Sekiguchi Miki	Takano Fujou

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佐伯 Saeki Akira

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佐川 Sagawa

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清水 Shimizu
Shimizu Masaji


Shimizu Ryuuji		Shimizu Yumi

	Shimizu Yuu

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清水 Shimizu
Shimizu Tokurou


Shimizu Takeo		Shimizu Hirokoi

	Shimizu Megumi

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篠田 Shimoda

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下山 Shimoyama
Shimoyama		?

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鈴木 Suzuki

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高見 Takami
Takami		Takami Hideko


?		?

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高嶋 Takashima

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武田 Takeda

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竹村 Takemura
Takemura ?		Takemura Tatsu	Takemura ? (Mother)


			Takemura Genichi

Takemura Stationary
	Owner		Regular Loiterers
	Takemura Tatsu		Hirosawa Takeko	Ohtsuka Yaeko	Satou Oitarou

			Itou Ikumi	Ohkawa Namie

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滝 Taki Juuzou

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田茂 Tamo
	Tamo Kiyo		Tamo Sadaichi	Tamo Sadaji		Tamo Satomi

Tamo ?		Tamo Sadafumi			Tamo Yuuko		?

	Tamo Hiroya

JA (Japan Agricultural Cooperatives)
Board of Directors	Staff
Tamo Sadaichi	Maeda Isami	Nara	Shimizu Takeo

Shrine		Ward Headmans Association
Head Priest	Shrine Parish Representative	President
Tamo Sadaichi

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田茂 Tamo
Tamo Yukiko	(Mother)		(Father)


Tamo ? (Son)		Tamo ?
	Tamo ? (Son)

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田村 Tamura Hirotake

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田中 Tanaka
Tanaka Yoshikazu		Tanaka Sachiko


Tanaka Kaori		Tanaka Akira

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田代 Tashiro
Tashiro Masaki		Tashiro Rumi

	Tashiro Takashi

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Tsuhara

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鶴見 Tsurumi
Tsurumi		?

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山崎 Yamazaki
Yamazaki		Yamazaki Waka


?		?

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矢野 Yano
Yano Tae


Yano Kanami		?

	?

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安森 Yasumori
Head Family (Maruyasu Sawmill)				Branch Family (Yasumori Contractors)
			Yasumori Giichi	Yasumori Setsuko	Yasumori Tokujirou		(First wife)


	Yasumori Atsuko		Yasumori Kazunari	(Son of Setsuko)		Yasumori Mikiyasu		Yasumori Nao

Yasumori Junko		Yasumori Kazuya					Yasumori Susumu

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安森 Yasumori (SanYasu/Yasu Three)
Yasumori Seiichirou		Yasumori Maiko

	Yasumori Kouji		Yasumori Hinako

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安森 Yasumori (UeYasu/Upper Yasu)
?		Yasumori Misuzu

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結城（小出） Yuuki (Koide)
Yuuki		Koide Azusa

	Koide (Yuuki) Natsuno

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Public Facilities
Community Center		Post Office		Police Substation
Library	Kindergarten	Post Master	Post Master Representative	Resident Officer
Yuzuki	Sumie	Osawa	Nagata	Takami	Sakaki

Town Hall				Fire Brigade
Assistant Director	Health Official	Village Census Forms	Fill-in Work	Chief	Member
Ogawa	Ishida	Tanaka Yoshikazu	Hirosawa Takafumi	Yasumori Tokujirou	Ohkawa Tomio

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Woooww this is very good and helpful!! 8D

(also, this is pretty much unrelated, but I've been wondering about Seishin and Toshio's birthdays. Seishin's around late July to early August, but I think it'll most likely be late in July. While Toshio's, because he was Seishin's classmate, and his birthday is never implied throughout the course of Shiki (the characters are too busy to mention someone's birthday anyway), I think it'll be somewhere between November and April 1. Seishin's older! Woohooo. This is only headcanon, but I'd like to read fanfics which mentioned something along this huhuhuhu)

Individual maps of which stores/houses are near each other/where they're located specifically to come on a separate map. I'm wondering how to maximize the efficiency and accessibility of this info for readers; right now, I'm putting family trees in alphabetical order (with women who don't share or married out of the family name listed as secondary. See: Gotouda, Maeda Rika's maiden family being included on the Maeda chart, etc.). I'm also not including unnamed or mostly unnamed family members who can be presumed to exist (such as Namie's husband--is it intuitive enough that she is not in fact Gigorou's sister who had Tomio unmarried and kept her name? That she married Gigorou's brother? Her husband/Tomio's dad is never really relevant nor is his named mentioned, so it seemed a waste to make a slot for him...). I only include unnamed kids/spouses if there's no other way on the chart to know if they're married/have them, since unmarried adults are seen as a bit weird. I put them in grey if they live primarily outside of town at their first mention (in Rika's case, she moves her kids to Mizuguchi with her parent(s) but starts out in Sotoba, so I marked them in Sotoba green). It's a lot of little detail to try to put out simply and intuitively, and we're looking at 100+ characters...

I think the only birthday explicitly mentioned is Megumi's. For Seishin, I figured due to thematic relevance of 33 years it'd have to happen sometime in the heat of the story so I allowed my range for him to include any time within the story, but yeah, I tend to assume July/August to be the range for an approaching birthday.

As for Ozaki, same as you I guestimate his birthday; I suspect December-June, as I had classmates who were up to about 10 months older than me and I was usually the youngest, or the girl who was younger than me was only a month later. So, 11 months isn't out of the question, but I'd say it's pretty unusual for classmates to not be within 9 months of the same age. The only reason I'm writing any of the months (July-November) off is because it's not mentioned as approaching. Given what all else is going on in October/November, I can see skimming over that detail. I suspect if Ozaki had an approaching birthday it'd fuel for more/included in the single "GIVE ME AN HEIR!" rants, but that's really reaching for a basis to exclude a period.

my mobiles can view this post, but my laptop cannot -- even it cannot show the sortcut to this post. I-I don't understand why O.o

By the way, I rewatched 20.5 and 21.5 few days ago. Those were crazy, man. 20.5 easily becomes the cruelest episode ever to me. Ranked two is Toshio torturing Kyouko I think. The third is the villagers killing Chizuru. Motoko is really crazy. She went 'kuso jiji kuso jiji kuso jiji' all the way and set Sotoba on fire, but ended up burning herself... Wow.

Uhm uhm and I also rewatched the part where Toshio is being told by Chizuru that Seishin has gone on their side. Seems like I made a mistake... Toshio doesn't seem like he's indifferent to such news, but instead he looks shocked, though he quickly regains his composure -- but more like in 'have given up' sense. He knows and he understands, so he lets it. That's why I think he may understand Seishin better than what it seems. He actually knows Seishin very well, but he's pushy and selfish so he does everything at his pace, which ends up forcing Seishin into whatever he does. He understands Seishin but he's rather selfish towards him, this dynamic formed by 30 years of habit. Only that in the end when Toshio sees that they've clashed completely, he lets go. To him it's also a great loss of his right hand man, but nothing can be done anymore.

Curious. I can't view the tables at work since Photobucket is blocked, but I would think tables are standard enough that they can be viewed on any device or browser...

Somehow, Ozaki's bit on Kyouko never even struck me as cruel at all the first time through; I recall just thinking "Ah, good, with this he will have information and the tables will turn. Good show, doctor!" It was about the second time through, watching with someone else who cited it as one of the more horror-inducing moments that I thought of it. I still excuse it as 100% utterly necessary, so that makes me rank the episode with Motoko and the Yanos as more cruel.

Tae is the only Shiki I found myself sympathetic for. I thought they were excellent at showing Motoko's initial neurosis turning into full on crazy. The eye jitter and her acting, and the disjointed way she moved about were all very compelling!

For the pipeline stint, in the manga they made Ozaki the leading man, and as much as I love Ozaki, I'm glad we also got a version focused on Hasegawa. It's just another episode of Shiki killing action when it's our lead involved, which is well and good, but Hasegawa's focus gave us a look at the other viewpoints involved, and on both the less and more extreme sides.

I already gave my analysis of that episode, but I pretty much agree with your re-take on it. That's fundamental Ozaki for you, I think; in the end despite seeming so rational he's a selfish, pushy brat like that, who can appreciate and even respect others while working against them. I think he thought of Seishin as a hypocrite until then: sitting around doing nothing even while tacitly disapproving was probably worse in his mind than even joining the other side if he thought they were so much more just. As much as it hurts on the personal level to have lost his right hand man, he can't hate him for it, he can only hurt and move on as himself.

Having rewatched a lot of the anime combing for screenshots for this table, I'm still impressed with it. There was a lot of love put into the work, for all its silliness and crazy designs and costumes. From carefully drawn expressions even in characters who aren't the focus of the frame to motions betraying thoughts not given explicit monologue in the anime (Natsuno's glance to Tamotsu when he's watching the horror movies feels like it captures the novel's scene in which he's gauging his reaction to see if he can tell him his suspicions or not), to the setting designs, to background characters (the woman (in novel, Sumie) who informs Seishin that Yuzuki is gone is in a daycare apron; it's never mentioned in the manga or anime that the library is part of the community center, which includes a daycare lot).

There are differences that may make it an unfaithful adaptation, but there's certainly a lot of love, subtlety, and character that goes undone in many "faithful" adaptation anime.

8D - even if I say they're cruel, I love those episodes for the psychological depth. But I still hate torture scenes. (but yeah, I can't really say anything for the Toshio scene. Like you, I pretty much went 'go go go Toshiooo') I also rejoiced when the villagers threw the stones at Chizuru. ...I think I put them as cruel in overall practical/technical sense? But I've forgotten a lot of other parts so I gotta rewatch all of the episodes and add or maybe renew my list.

I jumped to that particular episode (17/18 wasn't it?) and didn't watch the parts where Toshio and Seishin began to drift apart. I think it's ep11 isn't it? When they argue in the cemetery. (lol I so laugh at the part where Seishin's attacked by a dizzy spell -- and Toshio screaming after him when Seishin's about to faint hahaha it's rather silly) at this point it does seem like Toshio hasn't got him, but in the end he's so accepting like he's known it all along. That's some development.

I used to like Natsuno the most and be happy when he'd risen, but now... For the overall story to stay beautiful he has to stay dead. Someone mentioned that Seishin becoming Jinrou is supposed to be this huge thing, but it feels downplayed because someone has already become a Jinrou first. That's one. Natsuno's jinrou arc seems rather shallow too, and just silly... I sound like I'm not thankful, now that I'm getting the novel materials, but waahhhhhhh

I lacked any sympathy at all for any Shiki or their sympathizers. I understand parts where I'm supposed to be sympathetic, but I appreciate that the series didn't try to shoehorn too much sympathy for anyone in particular at you. Few things turn me off of a series faster than being told how to feel and blasting a soap box morale through a megaphone.

The anime/manga swapped out Hayami (Willy Wonka); he's no longer a Jinrou like he is in the novels, so the number of Jinrou, at least, stays the same. Though the surprise of one of our mains turning is a bit lost when another main has already done so, like you said. For the anime/manga, though, Natsuno was arguably more important than Seishin, so perhaps Seishin didn't need to be as much of a surprise.

I can understand Seishin's sympathy with the shikis in general, but yeah my sympathy is lost towards shikis like Megumi, Ohkawa or Masao. I may enjoy them as characters but I won't like them as a person. Seems like I can sympathize with Sunako better, though it's also because I shipped her with Seishin in the past. (I grow fond of a character as I grow fond of a ship, oftentimes) now though... I skip the part in the OP where their shadows are kissing and I only feel sorry for her now.

It seems like Toshio depends on Seishin in a way, now that I've rewatched some episodes. Seishin is one person he's come to expect to always be there to support him. He doesn't only depend on him technically but also sort of emotionally. He does seem like he's rather invested in their bond, for whatever reason. Having Seishin in his life, he's thoroughly spoiled. But he's a big boy and he won't be down just because Seishin's not there anymore, and Seishin's not gonna devote all his life for him.

I rewatched episode 11-17, particularly their scenes and they seem like about a matter of Seishin choosing Toshio, or other side opposing Toshio (especially in Toshio's view. Well he thinks he's right and all and Seishin should follow him), though yeah it's not all there's to it. I think these scenes have a particular theme: decision. It's all about Seishin making a decision... Decision which (eventually) sides with Toshio or not. It's not all about justice or humanity here ~_~

When Toshio finally discovers that Seishin's gone separated ways, he indeed looks a bit sad. He even repeats his words 2 times (it's really like Seishin to do that. It's a decision made by Seishin...)

I think Seishin and Sunako are at least anime canon as I've said. Personally so far in the novel I get more the feeling that he's unnerved or that she is indeed kind of invading his space, but the novel has a lot more time and internal monologues to develop that change whereas the anime wanted to focus on that choice aspect you're talking about seeing through those episodes, I think.

So, in your re-watch, or as you watch later episodes, any new thoughts on Seishin's take towards Ozaki after he's picked Sunako? Or any new insights from the novel? Things you think are just plain different? I know I didn't get nearly the same sense of spunk or vigor off of Ozaki I do in the novels in my runs through the anime, but now that I've read the novels, I can see that in the anime, even though there are fewer "casual" scenes for that aspect of him to shine. I definitely feel the seiyuu read the novel and included that in their interpretation of him; listening to the drama CD version with a different cast, the anime actor had a lot more dry slur and subtle undertones.

In my opinion though, even in the anime, in the end they only get as canon as loveless marriage? To me, way more than relationship (I could care less about it), what actually matters is how the characters feel about each other, and they're not required to be in a relationship. I support this idea about Seishin rescuing Sunako only for his own sake -- he completely disregards her wish, which shows that there's no actual affection, I mean, even Toshio is more considerate (towards Seishin) than that. And wow, that's sad. That's not affection, that's uncaring. It'll make a sad relationship if it were really one.

Unfortunately I haven't rewatched til that far! Will update you on that when I do 8DD

An alternative is that Sunako really was reached by his reasoning. She was interested in his writing as if looking for answers in it herself, so perhaps in as much as people say he and Sunako connect "spiritually" or he was saved by her understanding, he was saving her in return. It makes sense to write them becoming more even keel, as a linear, unchanging relationship is not much of a narrative climax. I do personally share the impression that he was acting selfishly rather than morally. But I also don't feel I understand Seishin, and for the sake of argument, I'll do my part and Devil's Advocate for the pair at the end:

Sunako was suicidal. Most people would consider talking somebody out of suicide to be the right thing to do rather than selfish, and her suicidal ideation is a new and sudden seeming response to shock rather than a clear, conscious, self-determined decision made over time (while almost everyone agrees with talking people out of impulsive suicide, there's less consensus when it's effectively euthanasia). Even if she talks about sin and reasons for death, she desperately wanted to live less than ten minutes ago. Less than twenty four hours ago she not only wanted to live but was still actively demanding the absurd continuation of a doomed plan to conquer. Then that she would be going on the rest of her life not only without a place to belong like she wanted, but without any of the comforts and company she had for so long all hit her. Even as someone who had just learned the importance of self determination and had become willing to commit murder, Seishin is committed to his own morals, his own "god" as his judge, not to a nihilist lack of justice. He hasn't become Tatsumi, even if he has gained an appreciation for the existential absurdity of struggling without meaning. Thus, I think it could be supported that his refusal to accept her suicide (for him as well, when he'd just found freedom in life no less) was an act of plain old decency if not outright affection, no matter how paternalistic. Sunako spends the entire novel being paternalistic and preachy at him.

That said I question whether she even likes him as more than a nice little pet or a jewel in her crown, but I'm Devil's Advocating the pro-pair side here so I'll leave that be.

Yeees this is perfect! I spent way longer than I cared to admit just looking at the map and the family trees. I'm surprised at how much this cleared up my understanding of the story in general. Thanksgiving was yesterday, but thank you so much for this, best translator ever!

I can't think of any suggestions off the top of my head about how to make it even easier to read (actually, had a few thoughts while I was reading, but I can't remember them...) I'll be sure to comment if I think of any. Eh, I guess one thing is, don't forget to put the Tamo family up there! I'm really confused about that clan. In the anime I think it was just that old temple guy who got shot in the head, and his son, but in one of the recent chapters their name popped up again sooo I'm really shifty about them!

Yes, yes, praise me more! Haw haw haw...!!

I've stared at it a lot too, so I'd surely believe how much time was spent on it.

I'm still adding on things, digging for pictures, etc. The Tamo family is up there with the Ohkawas and the Yasumoris in terms of sheer numbers, but I only have pictures for three, and I had to go manga hunting for one of them. I'm trying to confirm who's related to who since there's another set of Hirosawas and Shimizus whm I don't think are related to Megumi's Shimizus, another Gotouda pair who I don't think are related to Fuki and Shuuji, there are two sets of Katous...

The town map will probably get some adjustments too. I thought I remembered a river/swamp on the west of the temple, but now I can't find where I got that idea from, and none of the anime/manga maps have the river cross over...

But it's at least functional now. All the communities are at least in the right place in relation to each other, even if they're not necessarily the right size.

Well, do more praise-worthy things and the trend will continue ;D

I thought it was a bit unusual how the cast has some families with the same last name but aren't related (closely enough to be counted as one family anyway) well, it's not unusual in the real world but in most books I've encountered, authors try to use different names for everyone. Isn't Ono a little /too/ realistic sometimes?

I actually downloaded some of the original Japanese Shiki online in a word document (idk if it's the whole version, I can't read Japanese that well yet sadly) and it had a map of Sotoba included, so I could send you that pic as a sort of second reference if you want.

Oh yeah, the suggestion I was going to offer was are you going to have some sort of way of marking which characters are dead (or Shiki?) you could have the original character sheet of everyone and then after each chapter, cross out who died now, and it would be cool to see the pool of characters decreasing little by little.

I think I've seen that; the Japanese fan created PDF developed on 2ch, right? It had a few family trees, and some community specific maps, too (Tanakas are across from Ohtsukas, etc.). I want to see an in-text source for everything I put down, but I'll definitely use it to cross check my work and make sure we came out to about the same thing.

I could try a end of part spoiler map with colors behind each character image indicating their alive (white)/dead (black)/Shiki (grey)/unknown (blue-grey) status once I finish the main one. It wouldn't require much extra work!

I thought the same thing (re: TOO realistic?). Ohkawa, Maeda, Hirosawa, Yasumori, Tanaka, Katou, and Ishida all jump out at me as ultra common names. To be fair, she does indeed touch on the realism with some comments by characters about it, though; Infodum Hirosawa comments that he's not even sure if some of the other Hirosawas are distant relatives of his or not, and if Infodump-san doesn't know, who possibly could? A certain Hirosawa family is known as the Little Hirosawas or sub-Hirosawas, Ozaki has to stop and think "WHICH Tamos in Kami-Sotoba? The ones with the supermarket probably," the Yasumoris who aren't part of the Tokujirou clan are called the Yasu Threes, etc.

To quote Ozaki when talking about the petty nature of Chizuru's potato bandage story, "That's reality for you." I'm more charmed than I am annoyed by it, at the end of the day.

Edited 2013-12-04 11:50 (UTC)

I'm not sure where I got it, but it did have the things you described so I think it's the same one! Except I didn't download it as a PDF; the text was in a Word document. Yeah, if I was making a map too I'd want to be sure that it's unmistakably the right thing, to be able to point out a passage in the book and prove that it's right. It's probably hard to search the book for a source, so I was thinking you could use the ctrl-find function on an online version (like the PDF/Word document) and type in the location you're looking for, so it can find passages where it's mentioned.

I would love a spoiler map, it'd actually make my life a lot easier! Especially toward the end where people die left and right! The Battle Royale manga did that, and I really liked that. It really helped it hit home how the number of survivors was decreasing, and seeing the dead's faces shaded in was spooky in a good way.

I'm mostly...confused about it most of the time (so the family trees help a lot!) but I don't mind not having it be really easy, either. It doesn't get in the way of the story, at least.

I used to think for the longest time that Seishin was related to the Yasumoris because I misread 'Yasumori' as 'YasuMUROI' which doesn't make sense in hindsight but I was just remembering that now that we were talking about the last names!

...Now that I think about it, that would save me a lot of time on name searches when trying to look for it mentioning if X is ever mentioned to be related to Y or if it's just two people with the same last names.

It'd also be fairly easy to add tags for locations if we know where things take place. In the far, far future I intend to make all names in the trees links to their tags so you get a list of every sub-chapter they're in, but I'll have to clean up the tags first.

Pfft. YasuMuroi would translate to "The cheap Muroi." Give poor little crybaby Mikiyasu a complex, why don't you?

Like my bara loving English teacher would say, "You have technology at your disposal! Use it and don't waste my time!" (she said this today) But yeah, even in English books, going back to look for something can be next to impossible. Doing it in Japanese would be even harder, even if you know it as well as you do. Aren't you glad I commented? :D Another thing a digital version would help with is if you ever don't know a Japanese character, you can copy and paste it to look it up (do you ever come across characters that you don't know how they're read?)

Categorizing every event is a heavy task! However that could help with major events, like the festival at the end when Ozaki exposes the Shiki, where the heck was that? Also, I could use getting to know where the Ohkawa store is, and Takemura stationery.

Oh yes I remember 'yasui' means 'cheap'! Seee, my Japanese isn't totally hopeless after all! Then what does 'Mori' translate to? As is, wouldn't it be 'The cheap Mori'? Which is still bad. Nobody would pay a lot of money for poor Mikiyasu.

Fortunately Japanese names tend to jump out at me as most of the names are kanji I only know/associate with names. For example, I don't think 'zaki' in Ozaki is used even once in the book outside of the name (O meaning ridge might be, but only because the book talks about mountains a lot--in most contexts, never, and so far a different word has been used for ridge). That makes eye-combing a little easier since unfamiliar kanji or name specific kanji jump out from what's otherwise a lot of scribbles until I focus on it. I know English too well so it's harder to filter out anything as white noise. It's like if you put "don't read the sentence below this" even if you try, you'll end up reading it just by it entering your eyes. I could follow the instructions not to read the sentence below, in Japanese, even though I could probably read the hypothetical sentence below without a dictionary if it were simple. But it still doesn't compete with using technology for the exact combo, no misses--especially since some names DO use super simple kanji. Like Yasumori. Mori meaning forest. Cheap forest. Or relaxing/easy forest. Ohkawa is also made of two very, very common Kanji, but the name Ohkawa has significance to me (Ozaki's seiyuu is 'Ohkawa Tohru', my favorite seiyuu) so fortunately it jumps out at me, too.

As for how many kanji I have to look up, I'm probably looking up at least 10 per sub-chapter. I might have just shattered your idea of how fluent I am with that. If one sub-chapter's easy, it'll make up for it by making me look up 50 in another chapter. But I look it up by stroke layout, which makes me more likely to actually learn it than copy-pasting into a dictionary or hover-texting would. I may know what some mean, but not the pronunciation, too. A lot of words I know because I know the two kanji, but I'm not sure on which pronunciation is being used for each kanji on the word in question.

For example, when Ozaki talks about a compromised host (in the chapter I'm going to post in about an hour - 2.1.4), the kanji is "prediction/easy/prone/ready" + "contagion." I know by the kanji meanings that he's talking about someone prone to being infected and thus a host of the infection/disease/whatever. I don't know for certain whether the first kanji is pronounced 'eki' or 'i'. Or didn't. I mean I looked it up now because I felt silly for not bothering to when I was translating it and should be less lazy and more into learning. (It's i by the way; my guess was eki as the more common reading, which goes to show I need to look things up more often than I think I do.)

Ozaki exposed the Shiki at the festival at the shrine (marked on the map), which we know is in Kami-Sotoba, just across the bridge from the Katou electronics shop where Yuusuke lives. She's staked on the Kagura Hall, the open platform common to Shinto shrines and mentioned in passing waaaaay back in Yuusuke's first chapter.

Notice in the anime he's leading her across a bridge (Ichi no hashi in the map) towards there when he runs into Masao's dad who helps escort her; there's quite a bit of love put into the anime setting design and Sotoba's layout.

I see what you mean with words jumping out at you, even in English writing I can usually pick out long, complicated, unfamiliar words. I sort of did the same when I was studying for the SAT, which is so vocab based; other than just studying lists, I also grabbed the oldest, most complicated book I had at home along with a dictionary and then searched for words that were unfamiliar to me and expanded my vocab that way. Maybe not the go-to method for most students, but I learned 'anathema' and then later I came across it on the test, so who's the real winner here?
But I imagine that in Japanese writing, it's even easier to pick up unfamiliar words because the simpler kanji and hiragana would fade into 'background noise', whereas in English, the alphabet is more uniform and unfamiliar words can be short too.
Going back to what you said about 'not reading the sentence below', that's so true and I even tried it a few times. It's cool how when you see an English sentence, you don't even necessarily *read* it, you just see it as a snapshot and the meaning enters your head right away. I couldn't imagine coming even close to doing that in Japanese, so just being able to translate a sentence even with a dictionary is wow-worthy. I wonder how long it would take to be able to do the snapshot reading with a new language you didn't grow up speaking. Even with Russian, I can't always do that.

Looking up words via dictionary is better than copy and pasting in my opinion because somehow actually searching for the word helps it stick in my mind, but if I just copy and paste, it's like, oh okay, then ten seconds later I forget all about it because it didn't take effort.

So here's another question: when you write or speak Japanese, do you run what you're going to say through English first and then translate it, or do you construct the phrase in Japanese from the beginning? Also when you read, do you translate everything into English in your mind and get the meaning that way, or does it just come to you like with reading English?
Because in my Spanish textbook, it says that you should try to construct your sentences in Spanish from the get-go, and I could never get used to that although it's my third year now. Maybe someday!

Then also if you're not sure about the pronunciation of some kanji, then when you read Japanese do you not kind of get that voice inside your head that says the words as you read them? For example with English if I read 'I like men with stubble' I'm kind of reading that out loud except in my head because I know what it sounds like. But if you don't know how to pronounce a word...

Ohh thanks, the description corrected my Sotoba orientation. Ever since seeing the map, I thought that the river was really huge, but the bridge in the anime didn't seem that big. Or maybe it was...sigh, maybe I should watch episodes that correspond to the chapters as I go.

I snapshot read some Japanese but it's by no means constant. Unfortunately I do almost always "snapshot" hear Japanese. I say unfortunately because misheard foreign lyrics are one of the greatest joys of life, giving us such phrases as: "You Taco Nazi, look around and count on Lassie!" and "I'm a nookie bar!" On Japanese songs, I'm largely useless at coming up with "English" lyrics out of them. I also don't get quite the same kick out of parody subs that I used to... in fact, if you watch a show with subtitles or closed captions that you don't need, you're liable to get so displeased over poor translations that you won't even be able to enjoy the viewing at all until you manage to ignore them, which takes us back to that snapshot reading problem. Or maybe that's just me, since I'm fussy as hell about translations.

When communicating in Japanese I usually think it in Japanese unless it's unfamiliar grammar. If I don't know a word, I still probably think it out grammatically in Japanese with the English word I want slapped in. "Stenographer ni naru no ha nanka taihen sou da na." ("Becoming a stenographer kinda sounds like a lotta work.")

Sometimes I just think in Japanese because most of my exposure to the given topic is in Japanese. When I roleplay, a good amount of the time the character dialogue I'm going to inevitably write in English (I don't RP in Japanese) is in my head in Japanese first since the character voice for them in my head, which I'm trying to replicate, is Japanese. If I start thinking of their dialogue in English first (short of it being a more complicated scene/line) it's probably a sign I need to go back and watch or read something again to make sure I'm sticking to the source. Unfortunately this can lead to a lot of lines that sound more translated than natural; I'll smooth them out more than I would if I were actually translating something writ by somebody else, but I have gotten some flack over keeping some Japanese-isms in place.

One hasn't experienced humor until they've experienced gratuitous English. Songs are a great example, also clothing with English words on them. It's like the opposite of white people getting Chinese characters tattooed, they wear it because the clothes look cool and not for the translation. Me, I'd probably at least make an effort to make sure that cool new shirt I got with Italian printed all over it isn't 100% swear words. One time I saw this old Russian granny wearing a white flowery shirt that said 'BAD BITCH' on it in cursive. I almost felt personally responsible for not going up and telling her discreetly. But then again, old people can get snippy.

Ohh, so you actually have to reverse-translate sometimes? Well, good on you; according to everyone ever, the way to truly master a language is to think in it as much as possible.
Translations must also be really hard sometimes because every language's *style* is different, if that makes sense? Like, sometimes I see something written in English and I can just tell it was directly translated from Japanese because the style is different and the wording is a little...off, not something we usually use in English. So translating is hard work, also because you have to make the translation fit the target language too without losing the direct meaning in the process.

Somehow if I think that the old Russian granny knew exactly what she's wearing and does it intentionally, it's better. Let's pretend it's that. She's just that badass.

I kind of like that "off" feeling sometimes if they better capture the feel/meaning/style of its source. Of course sometimes it's just sloppy translation, but other times it's just an expression that doesn't work naturally in the target language. For example, take the lyric "Yasashii kimi no koe." I'm going to bet for the sake of fluency, most people will translate that as "Your gentle voice." However, the placement of yasashii (gentle) before kimi (you) means it's moditfying 'you' not 'voice' (koe). So the more accurate translation would be "The gentle you's voice.' That's ripe with that "off English scent." But I think the difference is important enough to be worth it. Many disagree the difference is significant, and thus why I suspect *most* people prefer fluency over accuracy. But in fact we don't have a way to express that different sentiment "naturally" in English, so why don't we just hijack it and make it our own after all? Translated works have the potential to influence the culture they're being translated for as much as any work in that culture's native language(s), given any living language is going to be changing. We adapt foreign-isms all the time. Is it that bad to sometimes realize something you're reading/watching is foreign? Particularly if you're a fan of and specifically seeking out anime/manga which, in English, is a term specifically referring to foreign mediums (or, to those who consider western works that adopt common features of them to also count as anime/manga, a distinctly foreign-influenced style, if nothing else).

Maybe our seamstress Toshio made it for her! Clothes are meant to reflect who you are inside. And there is no age limit on being a 'BAD BITCH'.

Ohh, I get it like with the sentence you used as an example, it's saying that it's the voice of a gentle person (you). Whereas if it's translated the fluent way, it's just a gentle voice, and doesn't reveal as much about the person to whom the voice belongs to. So it makes a pretty big difference right there. I'm kind of in between with accuracy vs fluency though; I would mostly always prefer accuracy because they're accurate (surprise, surprise) and those "off" translations are charming in their own way, plus there's just some phrases that don't translate well. However, if it's a long passage or something like that, I would prefer it to be smoothed down a little bit just for the ease of reading. It's nicer to read it long passages if they flow better, and a choppy, "off" structure would be uncomfortable after a while. I think all languages if directly translated would sound "off" to some degree, but it depends on how close it is to the target language. Japanese is really far from English so it sounds different, but if it were, let's say, German that was being translated, it would probably sound more natural while being just as accurate.

I was just reading this conversation because I find this topic interesting, thinking about my own experiences as a native german speaker who speaks (or rather reads and writes and thinks, I'm kind of ashamed of my pronunciation) english very fluently and how I sometimes forget the german words for something but know the english ones, and how I sometimes think in a mix of german and english, and then I realized that this conversation took place when I was just 13 and I had only just started getting better in english beyond what was expected of me in class by spending all my free time on the internet at that point lol
this feels kind of weird, a bit like finding a time capsule.

Edited 2022-10-13 22:44 (UTC)

For my use:

Add Takemura Mune from Kami-Sotoba; Hirokane woodworking shop.
(Distant relative of Kanemasa)

Add Tamaru Mitsue in Mizuguchi. (Neighbor of Maeda Rika)

Edited 2021-02-15 21:57 (UTC)

Nice

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