Sinnesspiel (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
sinnesspiel) wrote2013-12-03 08:11 pm
sinnesspiel) wrote2013-12-03 08:11 pm
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Shiki Novel Translations 2.1.1
1
On the very day Gotouda Fuki's funeral services ended, Seishin slipped from the graveyard to pay a visit to the Ozaki clinic. The lights were out in the waiting room. Instead, the light in the window facing the courtyard was lit. On the first floor of the main house, the nearest window was Toshio's bedroom. Maneuvering around the garden trees, avoiding the shrubbery, he went into the yard. Through the lace curtains he could see TToshio's room which he had become used to coming and going from. It was a western style room that was once a parlor. Toshio's bedroom was moved from a room on the second floor to this one sometime during grade school, wasn't it? It was many times larger than his bedroom on the second floor had been it it seemed like Toshio had some lingering affection for the second story. --Indeed, the move wasn't Toshio's will. The reason for why Takae suddenly moved Toshio's room to there, Seishin understood immediately even as a child. Even that night night feeling a pang of guilt that he'd harbored since then, Seishin tapped on the glass. Toshio, sitting back on the bed, looked up and jerked his chin in a motion for him to enter.
"---Yo."
The room was jumbled, a collection of Toshio's life history gathered within. The bed that hadn't been moved once since he was a child, a writing desk. The books on the shelves changed from reference books to medical journals, the contents of his lowboard went from idle collectables and records to bottles of western liquor but as the change was gradual, it didn't feel uncomfortable.
"Want a drink?"
Toshio motioned lightly to his glass, then opened the refrigerator, only household good he'd gained since succeeding the house. Without waiting for Seishin's response, he put ice into an extra glass.
"---And? What's up."
Toshio's voice as he poured the liquor and added water was oozing with an air of nonchalance. Seishin hesitated to speak, and for a while, without a word, he looked troubled at his glass. Toshio made a deliberately calm face, turning his eyes with disinterest towards the program on TV as he lit a cigarette.
"...Hey, what's happening in the village?"
"What do you mean what?"
"Shuuji-san, the three in Yamairi, Megumi-chan, Giichi-san, Fuki-san. ---For a single summer, don't you think that's too many dead?"
Toshio's voice was blunt. "Last summer there were four people. Who died. If we're talking about what's too many, it's probably about three. In the summer old people's bodies give out. Even more if they're older with a chronic disease. The heat this year's been harsher than usual, too."
"That's not what I'm saying." How many people died last summer, or even the year before that, couldn't be unknown information to Seishin who was none other than a monk."Certainly, there are plenty of older people in the village like Gigorou-san who are in bad condition. There's no lack of bedridden elders like Giichi-san, either. Those elderly dying may be ordinary enough for the year. But how many like Shuuji-san die in the prime of their life? Accidents aside, from illness?"
Toshio's voice as he responded was unnecessarily flippant.
"Shuuji-san's at the right age for adult diseases. Malignant tumors, heart failure, cerebral hemorrhages, the so called sudden death, suddenly dying off isn't something unheard of."
"Then, Megumi-chan? --Of course, it's not unheard for for someone young to suddenly die of a disease. That's been what's happening and will likely be what keeps happening But, it's been at most half a month that we've had this many in a row. Is this what you would call common?
Fuki-san, too, was at the age where something happening at any time wouldn't be strange. She herself was aware of that and had made voluntary arrangements for her own burial plot. For Fuki-san, if she only died after a quick striking illness, that might have really been a good thing. There isn't anything especially strange. --But, only half a month before that, her son died. A healthy middle aged man in the prime of his life, with a sound body, and without any particular chronic illnesses. He suddenly died, and half a month later his mother suddenly dies. Both without time for hospitalization, true sudden death. Is that something that happens a lot?"
"It's not like it's impossible, is it? With her son dead, an old aged mother'd be heartbroken."
"And if before her son died, her blood brother died?"
Seishin stared at Toshio, Toshio intentionally keeping watch over the TV.
"The Murasako's Hidemasa, too, was at an age where something happening wouldn't be strange. If Hidemasa-san alone had suddenly died, even I wouldn't have any doubts about it. The same for Gigorou-san, and the same for Mieko-san. But three people did, ---and on top of that, three people who lived in the same community, all died at once? Directly after that, his nephew in the prime of his life suddenly died, and half a month later his sister died. Each and every one of them were without the immediate care of a physician, without knowing if anything was wrong with any of them anywhere, without treatment or rest, just the sudden conclusion. Are you going to tell me that those are ordinary circumstances?"
Toshio didn't answer. As if bothered by the smoke from his own cigarette, he only furrowed his brows.
"As separate cases, indeed, there isn't anything suspicious. Elders die often enough, and it isn't unheard of for the young to die suddenly. Each one alone, or even if there were only two, could be thought of like that. But, when the numbers come out to this much, and in a row. Isn't there a meaning to it if they're serialized?"
"What are you saying it means?"
"....it isn't a plague, is it?"
At Seishin's inquiry, Toshio's gaze tore from the TV as he turned to face Seishin. He pushed his cigarette into the ash tray.
"That's an old style way of saying it." With a faint smile, he turned down the volume on the TV and brought out a stack of documents from beneath the low table. He placed them on top of the table. "Indeed, there have been a lot have deaths this summer."
Toshio folded his hands over the documents.
"Even taking into account how many old people there are and the heat, it's abnormal. Within about half a month, seven people, just out of the ones I know, are dead. Ohkawa Gigorou, Murasako Hidemasa, Murasako Mieko, Gotouda Shuuji, Shimizu Megumi, Yasumori Giichi, Gotouda Fuki, ---in short, seven people."
Seishin nodded.
"Last year all year how many deaths do you think there were? Our of just the people I know, it's eight. Five I wrote out death certificates for, the other three were transferred to the hospital in Mizobe and a report came in to me of their deaths. There may be more deaths I didn't have any business with, but at most there were as few as ten deaths or about. Even if we have a few more old people than the national regional average, that was the situation last year. Regardless of that, this August, and just in half of that month, we've already had a death count vigorously approaching one year's. Just the rise in numbers is abnormal. This isn't a normal situation."
"....Aa."
"It's not just a problem of numbers. I don't know Shuuji-san's cause of death. I wrote acute heart failure down at face value but if you say it honestly, it's cause of death unknown. Same for Gigorou-san, same for Hidemasa-san. Megumi-chan. Fuki-san. Five people died suddenly, and we're not very clear on that cause of death. For Mieko baa-san, there was a police autopsy but after all it was hard to say a precise cause. If you want one you could say there's nothing suspicious about, Giichi-san would be about it." Toshio lightly tapped the stack of documents. "No matter how you think about it, it's abnormal. And Shuuji-san is Hidemasa-san's nephew. Fuki-san was Shuuji-san's mother. The three in Yamairi were living together like a family. Of the six people who met with an unclear death, the only one without a connection to the other dead is Megumi, otherwise all of them had a close connection with each other. This undefinable death sparks off to people nearby. Indeed---I can only think of it as contagious."
Seishin exhaled deeply. It was a strain holding onto unease as nothing more than unease. Indeed it was true that it was a relief to have it make opaque but having it clarified like this meant the worst for the village.
"If it's an epidemic, it's a serious matter."
The people of the village had intimate connections, complicated like a meshed net. And the drainage system was far from complete. Kanemasa had been a backer and there was supplementary assistance from the city towards establishing a septic system but some portion of water for daily living even now was drawn from the river. Even with a waterworks system established, many villagers still used underground water in some form or another, and in the mountains, people drew drinking water from the swamp. But, in the mountains that encircled the village, there were spatterings of graveyards about. Even now the dead were buried there.
Seishin pointed that out, and Toshio lightly shook his head.
"If it's an epidemic. --But, that's not for sure yet."
"But."
"Don't rush ahead of yourself," Toshio said in a low, flat tone. "It's not good to make predictions. Things being what they are, if we embrace any weird predictions, there's the serious possibility it'll slow us down on grasping what the real situation is."
"Aa---that's right, my mistake."
"It looks like an epidemic but we can't say for sure. We can't put a name to the disease. At least for now, no epidemics that fit the symptoms come to mind. Unidentified is the true state of things. It might be a contagion, and it might not be. Thinking about it it might be a virus, it might be bacteria, we're completely in the mist about it. There's the possibility of it being a parasite, or the possibility that it's a mass poisoning. What we do know is that something unusual is happening, that's where we're at."
Seishin nodded.
"The question now is whether something's happening or not. Why have there been so many deaths, that's what we have to grasp."
From within the pile of documents, Toshio sought and dug out the clinical records.
"Megumi-chan's house call was on August 22nd. Megumi-chan fell the day before that on the 21st. She was found collapsed after a mountain hunt, and since then had been in bad condition, so I think we can think of her outbreak as being on on the 21st. Before that, there wasn't anything particularly wrong. At the least, her family didn't see anything wrong with her, and she herself wasn't claiming any complaints. Thinking that was strange, the family called me on the night of the 22nd, and it was three days after that she died. Four days after the outbreak. By the way Megumi-chan, when I saw her, didn't look at all from any angle like a patient three days from death."
"Right...."
"Aside from anemia, Megumi-chan didn't have anything else that could be seen as wrong with her. Why did she suddenly end up dying is, to be honest, something I don't know." Toshio threw out Megumi's clinical records on the table, lit a cigarette and exhaled smoke. "There's a danger of an epidemic. That's something I'm not denying. If on the off chance it is one, there's the possibility it'll become serious. That's why we need to investigate to understand the true state of things but that's a difficult problem."
"It's a difficult problem?"
Toshio nodded.
"The last time I saw Megumi-chan, she was incredibly lethargic, like just talking was tiring but she herself didn't seem to be aware of anything being out of order. That's probably how it was. Aside from the anemia, there wasn't anything special wrong with her. Pain, fever, if there was anything that could be assessed that was unusual, or even if the patient seemed off, I'd have been anxious. But, just being tired or easily worn out isn't something to consult a doctor for a diagnosis over. If those are the first symptoms of this illness, we're in trouble."
Knowing what he was trying to say, Seishin nodded. "Aa, that's true. Feeling sluggish and all is a common thing. Even thinking there might be a temperature and measuring it to find out there isn't one really does happen a lot."
"Right. There's nobody who'd come rushing into the hospital over that, and we wouldn't be able to take it if they did come in over just that."
"All the more because the patient would know that. They look for the precise cause. A cold, every day fatigue, drinking too much, maybe those were the cause, they would think of every day occurrences. If that became even worse, they'd first probably lie down for a rest, doubting whether or not to consult a doctor."
"That's how it is. The patient doesn't feel anything's wrong. I can sleep it off, is how they think of it. Even so the battle with this illness is over quick. By all rights, there's no time to hesitate."
While hesitating another dead body with an imprecise death would appear. All Toshio could see was an indistinct dead body. There wasn't time to see how it progressed or run any tests. This was how the situation progressed in reality. If Shimizu hadn't had Megumi seen by Toshio, there would have been nothing seen in it by Seishin and the others other than another case of the "inexplicable serial sudden deaths."
"This starts out incredibly casual." Toshio stirred through the documents without aim. "Megumi-chan's started with anemia. I don't know about Gigorou-san or Hidemasa-san but Mieko baa-san came to the hospital just a little bit before those two died, saying they weren't well, that it was probably a summer cold."
"I heard the same thing when Shuuji-san died She thought it was a summer cold or that the summer heat was getting to him, Fuki-san was saying."
"I heard it too. A summer cold without a fever, Fuki-san said, Mieko baa-san said it too. In short, sluggish, without an appetite, and poor complexion. What or how they can't say but somehow they just don't look right, in other words. It's possible that might be from anemia after all, or maybe there's some way it appears besides anemia. At any rate, anemia sets in and it starts with trivial symptoms. From there, withina few days it suddenly gets much worse. You could even say drastic."
"Mieko-san had liver failure, right?"
"Right. The two old guys in Yamairi, Shuuji-san, and Megumi-chan are unclear. Fuki-san might have had acute renal failure. Uremia from renal failure, and that's the cause of death, I'd been thinking. Giichi-san may be the exception but anyway, he had aspiration pneumonia. Those are all the cards in my hand. Even though seven people've died."
Seishin groaned in his throat. Toshio needed detailed data but the early stages of it were just too trivial, the patient themselves would have no sense of impending danger. If they didn't come into the hospital, clinical data couldn't be assembled. That said, if they had the public offices spread the concern, with it starting as trivially as it did, everyone and anyone would flood the hospital and a panic would be unavoidable.
As if reading Seishin's thoughts, Toshio murmured. "Making a stupidly honest announcement of the situation would just be dangerous with no benefits. Tired, no appetite, worn out easily, if people came into the hospital over just that, the hospital'll be paralyzed. And that's not all, in the event it really is an epidemic, the hospital itself wouldn't be able to help becoming a source of contamination."
"But we can't leave it as it is can we? Anyway, at the point something feels off, we need to have them come in."
"We can't take it," Toshio sighed. "For those who've contracted it, we don't want them to think of it as nothing, but to look at it more seriously and come to the hospital. We want the patients who haven't contracted it not to make a pointless fuss and get neurotic. But whether they've contracted it or not the patient themselves wouldn't know."
Seishin nodded. "But, for the time being I think that there's a need to call attention to it. There are many whose physical conditions are deteriorating, so be aware; if we don't at least say that much, then..."
"Just thinking about what it's going to bring on is a pain in the ass but that's all we can do. We'll have to get the public office to cooperate with us, huh?" Toshio breathed a deep sigh. "We'll consult with the public health official Ishida-san, and spread it through the public office to get things under way. At any rate, that's the only way we even can start."
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-04 04:34 am (UTC)(link)Well, it's also 30 years of friendship, but it's nice to see Seishin also comfortable around all things Toshio, just like Toshio him.
And wow we have a glimpse into some history here. Why did Takae move Toshio's bedroom to first floor? Why does Seishin feel guilty? (((Perhaps he often bothered Toshio at night like this in the past since he was child that Takae just decided to move Toshio's bedroom to first floor so that Seishin wouldn't cause a bigger mess and disturb the whole household. Doesn't mean Toshio didn't also contribute to all the ruckus, I figure. They were children. Takae must be thinking of Seishin as not so good of an influence but nothing can be done about it. It's funny if this is true because he feels guilty but he didn't stop his habit. Coming from Toshio it's understandable, but coming from Seishin it's almost funny in a way.)))
Soo Seishin does sometimes drink, though I figure nearly all the time it's because of Toshio. I was wondering about this, actually, so it's nice that I can actually get some closure about this.
Re: 8D
I also wonder if Seishin's perception that Toshio "seemed to feel lingering attachment to the upstairs" was Seishin mis-reading what was Toshio's own a bit of sentiment (or exasperation) that his circumstances with his best friend and his own petty family were what they were, but that's an entirely subjective take apropos of little textual support. I just think it'd be in line with his "frog in a well" angst more so than sentimental attachment to any particular place. Then again, he's clearly got a similar unexpected attachment to "his village" and I can see Ozaki as the type of kid who'd just like having higher ground just as easily.
Re: 8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-04 05:13 am (UTC)(link)Seishin clearly has some selfishness in him, I like that.
also: my laptop apparently can view the Crow post, even to the Shiki map and the comments, but it still cannot view the Shiki map-only post. Curious.
Re: 8D
Bizarre, that. I probably won't update it again until the weekend, though. It should be finished by the time I finish chapter 1 at least.
I'm debating renaming 'Crow' to 'The Raven' depending on the other part titles. Part 2 is titled "Calling from the abyss" which I originally assumed was a reference to the Psalms' song quote "Out of the Depths I Have Cried" as the novel does have biblical references, but it may also be a reference to the poem by Charles Baudelaire the more I ruminate. If that's the case, maybe 'Crow' is actually a reference to Poe. I don't see a connection and just took it to mean crows, like heralds of death, but...
Re: 8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-04 02:49 pm (UTC)(link)Besides, the novel provides yummier materials, I cannot help it. Not just Toshio/Seishin stuffs, but generally as a whole. I have such novel-bias, so...
Completely lost about poetry/literature so I'll just leave everything up to you. I know that this other translation used Crows though.
no subject
As for grossing anybody out,
If someone disagrees, they're free to chime in, it's an open community. Or they're free to shrug and keep on truckin'. With the way Shiki was marketed I think you have to assume most fans will be yaoi fans.
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-04 10:22 pm (UTC)(link)It's canon that Toshio is real fond of Seishin, more than it seems to us readers in my opinion. (he's a tsundere after all) Seishin's emotionally detached, but there's no argument that Toshio is one of few people he cares about the most. But yeah... I fear of letting myself be misled, by reading things that don't actually exist as being there because I'm biased and hopeful.
no subject
But even if I try to argue for Ozaki as a particularly cold fish with a borderline sociopathic lack of attachments or empathy, it's evident that Seishin is the most important person to him in canon. I can perhaps argue it's utility, propinquity, habit, etc., or a terribly weak form of "liking" because he's an asshole, but I can't argue that he's not fond of him, or even that he's not one of if not the most important person in his life.
And the novels and a re-analysis of the anime with the novel lens have me less convinced of his borderline sociopathy. I could still argue it, but my current take is that he *is* in fact completely capable of the full range of attachment and emotions, sincerely likes some people and even cares for others, but just plain doesn't towards many.
In the manga I still get a strong, dry "no real feelings here" vibe, but I think that's because he monologues most of his "feelings" and they seem rationalized more than shown. Telling is more dry than showing if you're not some kind of poet or don't have voice, music, etc. to add to the words, words, words. I also think Fujiryuu went a little too far in trying to make Ozaki "heroic" as a shounen protag and didn't show many emotional responses or "weaknesses" besides anger, but then many viewed that coldness as far from heroic. I think the anime had a sliiiiightly better balance, though there are still also parts of him I think the manga were better with, and I'm willing to grant to each format that each media has elements it's better suited to express. And maybe the novel will blow them both away, but it'll really take some with craft tier writing for me to claim that the solid voice acting, music, motion, visible facial expressions, shot framing, etc. aren't enhancements on some level.
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-05 01:21 pm (UTC)(link)aannnddd ep19 -- well, it's pretty much concluded that Seishin may disagree with Toshio, but he doesn't hold ill thoughts towards him, just like Toshio does him. He's pretty much worried about him, when Tatsumi breaks the news about Chizuru's death, Seishin thinks: 'I see, Toshio's managed to alert the villagers' and there's no malice here as far as I see. Sunako commands Tatsumi to kill Toshio, but then Seishin asks Sunako to run away lest she be killed by Toshio. At this point I think he doesn't think the Shikis are going to win. Sometime later -- when Tatsumi returns to Kanemasa, Seishin asks where Toshio is. Tatsumi says 'worried, are you?' (thanks for clearing this up, Tatsumiiii) Seishin may be emotionally detached, but he's indeed empathetic and humane. Then when Toshio and co come barging into Kanemasa, Toshio looks at the uneaten meal and thinks 'you were here, Seishin?' but what strikes me the most is the ending though, Seishin thinking that one of the villagers will embrace an intent to kill him, if what Sunako says is right (I assume it's her quote of 'when there's intent to kill, there's always a reason) but when he thinks of that, it was Toshio's gaze of murder intent on screen -- I think out of all people, he thinks it's Toshio who'll eventually kill him.
ep20 -- when Ohkawa the father finds out that Shikis can control humans, he says: 'Doesn't that mean that we have traitors who sold out to Shiki, like the Kirishiki guy?' and right on cue, Toshio immediately thinks of Seishin. He looks quite sad I'd say, but then Ohkawa interrupts his line of thoughts, saying: 'they're collaborators!' Toshio's eyes widen, thinking of Seishin's back as he walks away (from him, yeah) in the hospital at the moment of moral horizon. Here, Toshio looks quite upset, saying: 'Even so, we can't kill them can we? It'll be murder.' He says this while leaving Ohkawa and this other old man, which makes me think he really is upset. It's creepy that Seishin's thoughts in the ending of ep19 is immediately addressed implicitly here.
ep21 -- Toshio's eyes catching Seishin in the driver's seat but Seishin doesn't even notice him, and then his gaze continues to linger on his direction for few more seconds. He already knows that people are after Seishin, but yeahhh he lets it.
ep22 -- nothing happened. But, but -- when Toshio says 'what I've done may have just been an useless struggle' he's looking at the temple, which is already on fire. It could be that he's looking at Sotoba as a whole, really, but it's the mountain -- where the temple is located at -- which i think he sets his gaze at. He's looking up, after all.
So, my conclusion -- these two men clearly like/care about one another (to what extent -- I think it's pretty high up there), but they're still pretty much destined to go at each other's throats. Toshio is way more sentimental, so it seems like his mind's full of Seishin, while Seishin, even though detached, is empathetic and humane. He's kind towards everyone, but he's not that sentimental, in my opinion, so it seems like he's indifferent towards Toshio, not to mention he's conflicted inside about lots of things that he doesn't constantly think about Toshio in sentimental sense -- but there's no doubt that he cares a lot about him. Even post Shiki, I don't think this is going to change much.
no subject
I agree with most of your analysis and particularly found his reaction when Ohkawa says "they're collaborators" to be significant. I do think that it is ultimately also Ozaki's true moral reasoning that they can't kill influenced humans, but the fact that he forced himself to say it flippantly when we see a true emotional reaction inarguably linked to Seishin speaks volumes. I really like his seiyuu's delivery there.
Alternately, it may represent that Seishin's reason to kill "himself" rests on Ozaki. Ozaki is the only one he has any signs of hesitance to abandon. He's already admitted to himself that he'd be happier if the entire village just died off. Killing his obligation bound self which the little brother represents is, rather than cutting his wrist, cutting his ties to Ozaki. You could argue it means that killing in this case refers to that. That's how I read it, as ultimately the line was written on Seishin's novel which is written for him to understand himself. This is also a big part of why I think the reading that Seishin has a tragic gay crush on Ozaki is valid with or without yaoi goggles.
But it could be argued that of course its meanings expand to the situation around them. Finding it valid doesn't mean I think it's a necessary or unavoidable reading.
Also note that the food Ozaki finds as a hint to Seishin's presence is untouched. At this point Ozaki has absolutely no way of knowing if Seishin is a prisoner, a conspirator, or little more than a spectator. All he knows is he's alive, because there was food for him. Indeed, we the audience who know more would be hard pressed to view him as much more than a spectator until later when he's explicitly asked by Tatsumi to do him a favor, and he doesn't agree until told it's to protect Sunako. He's unwilling to kill at this point even for their side, or even when at the temple; he accidentally defeats the guy attacking him there and is visibly distraught over it.
One aspect to consider is that much like Seishin supposes Ozaki may kill him, Ozaki is supposing that as one of those collaborators, Seishin may kill him. These guys have been actively going after his life, and if Seishin has any sway at all, he hasn't been calling them off of that, and indeed he must have been at the base hearing the obvious plans built around killing him specifically.
But he's still with them, and when he sees him driving by, Seishin is under nobody's control, his face is not in a lethargic daze. He looks worn and exhausted, but he remarks in the manga and novel when Yasuzou shoots at him that he'd been seeing that trance face all summer and should have recognized it. Seishin doesn't have it. He has 0 reason to suppose Seishin doesn't want him dead anymore. Seishin's not alone as one who may feel his friend would kill him; in fact, the line about there always being intent to kill would go both ways. Both have reasons to kill each other, even without hatred. And for all Ozaki knows, Seishin hates him. Maybe he was another obligation all along. Ow.
At that, he's reduced to idle "Aa"s in response to Ohkawa's plans. Again, his seiyuu nails the tone on those simple wordless grunts.
As for episode 22, I don't think he was really thinking as much about Seishin here myself. I took this to mean he was fighting for no other reason than to fight, expressing his idea of justice, without really doing it for anyone's sake. This is a big part of where I get the cold fish feeling from him: it was never about the patients personally. It was never about his love of the village for its own sake. It was never about humanity or warmth. It was just his won self-assigned moral duty. He did it because he couldn't live with himself if he didn't. That's all. Who did he lose to? Who did he really struggle against? Nobody but himself.
But I think he'll continue to struggle against himself forever, because he only seems to regret losing, not trying, and it matches well with Seishin's narrative on the importance of struggling for its own sake.
On that level, whether they know it or not, there's an understanding between them. That's why I think they couldn't hate each other. It was in the end dreadfully, laughably impersonal for both of them. So few people on the sidelines really mattered to either of them; I think Ozaki ultimately mattered more and longer on a personal level for Seishin than vice versa, but I think that's because Ozaki didn't have to chose until late into the game "my justice or Seishin." And even then, he didn't have to chose so much as he let a crowd he couldn't control anyway become a threat to Seishin after restraining them to the extent he could while he could for reasons that were moral as much as they were personal.
I unfortunately also think once Seishin made his choice that Ozaki didn't matter at all... but I'm not sure how to process that with him "worrying" about Toshio in the mansion. Was that personal worry, or worry knowing that Ozaki is the real threat of the bunch? Or both, like Ozaki's order not to kill living humans under the influence or opting to join them?
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-06 01:11 am (UTC)(link)And I want to talk about this selfishness issue. When you like a person you're usually selfish about them (of whatever nature that feeling is), and now I'm attributing this to Seishin. The way he often visits Toshio at most unlikely of time (basically whenever he wishes to), disturbs his sleep or so, but he still does that even if he feels regret, shows something, in my opinion. He often visited him at night in the past, didn't it? The fact that he does this even when he's an adult shows that he has done this since long, visiting him whenever he wishes to. And Toshio doesn't mind either. It's interesting, that he often complains about everything (even if he actually doesn't mind), but he never complains about Seishin visiting him even at night, even if he knows he needs to rest. Well, it's no secret that he loves his company.
The one who also often meta-ed about Shiki which I mentioned about several times also thought that Seishin had sorta crush at Toshio. He was unmarried, never showed interest in women or anyone whatsoever, but only thought about Toshio. For all we know Seishin might really have a crush on Toshio, but considering Toshio's married and other things... He cannot really act on his feelings, yeah haha. Seems like you agree on this too, while I think it's more likely that Toshio is the one crushing on Seishin. Now though... I think it's sorta mutual between them.
For the worry issue, I do think Seishin's genuinely worried about Toshio, though yes it may not be the only thing he feels about him that moment. But I also have a tendency to take the scenes at face value, relying on my instinct/first impression more, because I don't think I understand enough to be able to make thorough analysis. Hehe (but it's not really good either...) that's why I often rely more on others' meta.
Being betrayed by a person who matters the most hurts like bitch though... Poor Toshio. He definitely takes Seishin's betrayal personally, not only for humanity or justice. He could care less about other people not following him, though bigger support is always preferred, but Seishin's the only personal matter to him here. Same as Seishin, when he makes a decision, it's more like a matter of Toshio or the shikis, not humans or the shikis. He hates the village and wishes upon its death, and he sympathizes with the shikis, so he tends to follow them -- but even Seishin's not fully into this. Even at Kanemasa he's still undecided, only when Tatsumi asks him to protect Sunako he actually acts.
I myself don't know how take ep22, but even if Toshio looks at the temple, I think I'd take it as: 'Apparently I'm like this, Seishin.' But maybe him not looking at the temple in particular but only looks at Sotoba in general is more likely. The temple is most prominent part of Sotoba, the only thing which can be seen from afar, so it makes sense if it seems like he's looking at it, when he actually isn't. Sotoba is a mountain village after all, so it makes sense that he's looking up.
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I'd be happy if Toshio had a crush on Seishin too, but I'm not really seeing anything to suggest it as anything romantic from his end. Meaningful, deep and personal, absolutely, I think anyone at all would agree his feelings towards Seishin are all of the above more so than they are with his wife whom we can assume he has had sex with at some point, if only because it's what you do on your wedding night. So, I wouldn't say the difference is lack of sexuality (a common component of romantic love).
What defines the line between love and friendship is subjective but if Seishin is ultimately the one who throws him away, he's also the one who suffers more for his affection before giving up on it in the last fifth of the series. Toshio shows no willingness to compromise himself for his affection for Seishin at any time at all, even though his affection is more obvious.
Romantic love is generally seen as exclusive/competitive: it's why ship wars are so heated. While perhaps Toshio and Sunako are just symbols for something (that is how he sees characters in his writing--but is that all real people are to him, too? I don't know.), Seishin is put in the position of choosing between them. Ozaki, territorial as he may be, does not exhibit particularly exclusive or selective nature. He pushed for Seishin to make a choice ("this is my justice, where's yours?") but he wanted everybody to make a choice and was repeatedly monologuing and angry that others pretended not to notice anything to avoid making a choice. Seishin exclusively considered Ozaki's choices relevant. The village could die for all he cared.
Romantic love is also generally characterized by wanting to 'merge' to some extent and share lives. Toshio wanted *a* choice out of Seishin; he was hurt when Seishin chose against him, but still worried about his life, and he seemed to approve more of him having made a decision than he did when he was being a hypocrite clearly thinking killing wrong but doing and offering nothing 'right' himself as they killed. Toshio's affection towards Seishin is not contingent on merging. Seishin threw him away, perhaps not completely but in a very major sense when it was determined that he and Ozaki's views couldn't merge. Sunako flat out says to him, almost snidely with an audible cute little smile, "I should have killed your friend sooner" and he doesn't have any significant sign of concern or internal conflict at all. Her words seemed like outright bait, perhaps even wanting to confirm she's "won." His thoughts seem to be limited to "but Sunako, you're going to lose and die, he's too powerful now that he has momentum." She has won. (...Which I don't think was what Ozaki was talking about losing to in the end, but.)
Maybe I'm just talking more about my idea of romantic love than anything now. All I'm doing is revealing I'm cynical, since my qualifiers for romantic love seem to be suffering, possessiveness, exclusiveness (which shares a root with 'exclude'), merging...
I don't think there's anything wrong with going off of your first impression. The staff works to construct a scene to be taken in in real time first, analyzed later, so a person's initial emotional impression is a reflection of their efforts and vital to any emotionally driving story.
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-06 02:00 pm (UTC)(link)Maybe my idea of romantic love is too shallow then. But when analyzing them I don't expect anything too intense as well, so I was surprised when you said you noticed these from Seishin... Well, I might have sorta noticed it too, but couldn't put it into words.
I definitely need to rewatch/reread and observe and analyze again, but this is my temporary take so far: Toshio pretty much takes Seishin as a given. Seishin's always there, always the one who supports, always the one who gives -- he expects Seishin to always be there to support him. 'Always' is the key word here. Since he expects Seishin to always support him, pretty much extended to: always be there for him (whenever he needs him). he thinks they're a package; partners for-ever, will always be side-by-side forever. Pretty much formed by 30 years of friendship. Because of this, he pretty much never entertains the idea that something he does will involve a choice that involves Seishin as his opponent.
I actually don't get why you think that Toshio thinking of Seishin as a hypocrite, so I want to ask: why do you think that? Maybe this is also me taking ep11 at face value, but I really am in the opinion that Toshio is really just questioning his moral. Basically just about: 'what the hell are you thinking? Get your shit together!' don't think that the scared idea is too relevant here. Maybe it's just me, but saying someone is a hypocrite usually involves one to compare this person's current behavior to their past behavior.... doesn't it? (and I don't see Toshio doing this in ep11.) but I'm rather shallow and basically understand nothing about everything, so I may be wrong. I may also be forgotting some important stuffs from the anime. Pssshhhh I need to rewatch and this time Very Thoroughly.
I also don't think that Toshio thinks of the villagers who refuse to acknowledge the shikis as avoiding to make a choice (for the sake of making a choice) though. I think it's exactly as he said: people tend to not acknowledge things which aren't convenient for them. People who basically blind their own selves, ignoring whatever happens before them. But again, I may be forgotting some important parts.
Crush has many degrees, and if you ask me, (given my understanding about romantic love in general which is shallow, as I'm not even a romantic person) then Toshio can be seen as liking Seishin quite romantically. (but in the meantime, don't believe me) lol maybe I should ask my friends for their opinion on this. (given they're much more of a romantic, their opinion will also be quite valid to me.) they don't know Shiki though, so I'll just be saying about person A and B. For a starter, I'll be asking my sister (who also doesn't know about Shiki) since I'm also curious and this is just not my area of expertise. (because then I'll be doubting myself)
I think Toshio can be seen as crushing on Seishin in a way, but yeaahhh it's not a massive thing. A lot of people also don't want to neglect their values (and self) just for the person they love. I also entertain this idea about Toshio doesn't really think/put a name into what he feels about Seishin, because they're already a given, already awesome, even when some romantic feelings are actually there. He's rather sentimental about Seishin, (the only person he's shown to be actually sentimental about) but yeah he's his own person first and foremost. Even if he likes Seishin romantically, if Seishin opposes him, regarding something as massive as this war between humans and shiki, makes sense if Toshio abandons him. How could he choose a person who opposes him over the lives of a thousand people? Not to mention it's his values and justice.
While for Seishin, who never consider the villagers' lives as terribly important, makes sense if he's more conflicted when the person who matters the most opposes him. He hates the village, only slightly sympathetic with the shikis, but Toshio is on the side of those he absolutely despises... The choice seems a bit harder for him.
There's also an idea of Toshio not the type who likes to shower the person he loves with affection. This could be conscious or subconscious.
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I think Ozaki sees Seishin as a hypocrite (until he makes his choice) for reasons along the line of what he said at Setsuko's grave: "Their deaths are terrible, but people's deaths aren't?" Seishin is operating under the idea that killing is never just; Ozaki finds a failure to stop murder when you can to be akin to murder itself. From an objective stand point, you, I, philosophers, and many readers can see the difference between this even if we agree, but this is how I think we are shown Ozaki thinks.
A man is going to stab another to death. You can strike the stabber dead or by not doing so kill the victim yourself. This is how Ozaki sees it.
A man is going to stab another to death. You can strike the stabber dead and be a murderer yourself or do nothing. This is how Seishin sees it.
Saying things like 'stop the stabber without killing him' is intentionally missing the point of the moral exercise to avoid an uncomfortable decision. *Of course* that's better. If possible. I think Ozaki finds lingering at this "seek alternatives stage" hypocritical in that it's choosing Seishin's way without owning up to choosing it.
With the masses, he's upset that they realize "something" is going on, want it to stop, but don't want to stop it, so they act like they realize nothing. Rather than hypocrisy defined by past vs. present behavior, it's a discord between current values and actions. "Someone" should stop this; stopping it would be the right thing to do. But not me, because the means of stopping it are wrong and it'd be the wrong thing to do. So we'll dress it up as the baptism of reason and pretend not to notice anything so we're not compelled to act, which is in itself hypocritical because we have fear, we are noticing something. We're calling the doctor out to ask about "it", we're having meetings in the day time and are afraid of the dark.
They've not only realized something is going on, they've realized the only means to combat it is going to mean fighting the ones doing it. The masses are not actually dumb. They talk about alternatives to violent murder and insist on trying anesthetics, but where's anybody crying out for a fair trial and humane execution when the masses are stoning Chizuru? They're not actively choosing inaction or humanity or to let the Shiki do what they want, either.
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-07 03:56 am (UTC)(link)What I can say (which I don't doubt you already know) is that it's not impossible for Toshio to have some degree of crush on Seishin, even with him being like that. I still feel like that. Well, this is pretty much according to my own experiences. (Though, those are just childish experiences and I've never had any lover, and I don't know about adult romance at all.. I'm not helping much, sorry :( ) if Toshio's anything like me, for example, it's not thaaat impossible. (not saying I'm like Toshio, I'm just providing an example. But yeah, this may not help much...)
Besides, it usually tells something if a character in fictional work is shown to be that affectionate towards another character. ...doesn't it? (but yeah, the author is Ono, so I don't know if this is anything that's Meant To Be)
What I imagine from Toshio's kind of crush is not something entirely burning, but something that's born from years and years of good friendship. There are people who easily fall in love with/get interested in their best friends, because they're already great, already awesome, already comfortable together and it's his most cherished thing. But there are people who simply don't want to sacrifice their own selves even for their crush, who are just too selfish, who refuse to give all their heart for them. Who refuse to live for their crush.
I don't really expect something really big from Toshio's crush to begin with, if there were really one. (but wow, if the novel can prove me otherwise, something bigger, how thrilled would I be) I cannot say for sure, given my understanding of romantic love and friendship in general... But I think it's not impossible. This may just be more of an imagination that an analysis...
Maybe I'm only seeing things from my own standards, but it's rather difficult not to when I don't understand anything other than myself. Maybe I should try different method to analyze.
This may not be satisfactory reply, I'm sorry :( .
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1. Is it possible, in your view, for important or deep non-romantic friendships to exist?
(a) If not, then there's your answer: romance is distinct from friendship only in its level and is one end of a continuum. This is a popular view point and indeed many romantic partners do feel threatened by "best friends" of their partners regardless of gender or the role of that friendship, as different friends, much like romantic partners (be one poly-amorous or just indecisive), can fill different needs.
(b) If so, what is the difference? This is also a popular view point as many do not feel romantic attachment to their friends, even while talking about how they may be more important than a romantic partner. People in this camp theorize that friendship is necessary but not sufficient for romantic sentiment.
(b-2) Yes, there can be deep non-romantic friendships, but deep friendships can (at some rate of frequency undefined) become romance without anything added but depth. There are forms of romantic attachment that are based on the continuum as well as forms that are not. In this case, determine which you suspect the potential romance in question is (type a or b) and proceed accordingly.
2. How can the authoress show it as one rather than the other, whether they're separate sentiments (b) or on a continuum(a)?
A good plenty of people would find such analysis in itself to be pointedly unromantic and missing some essential heart in wanting to strictly define everything. But I would put more stock in someone like you with no experience but a great intellectual interest in it than someone who says they have experience and uses that as grounds for special pleading or "just knowing" without having or wanting to analyze it.
For all the over-analysis I rant on with deciding it's not canon, I have RP'd him in such a relationship with Seishin and enjoy fanworks supposing such interest on one or both sides, so it's not as if I don't see any grounds in that position at all. Fundamentally I agree with you. Just not enough to call it canon... and you're not calling it canon, either.
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-07 06:31 pm (UTC)(link)Toshio/Seishin are still most likely to be canon though, compared to other pairings involving them (there's only one: Seishin/Sunako. Toshio/Kyouko doesn't even count). They are the most exclusive, and personal, matter for each other, and usually this is a sign. Usually.
I have a question by the way: could Ono's statement about 'no happy ending for supposed romantic pair' be applied on Toshio/Seishin? They pretty much... match the patterns of her statements (both of them)... I think I'm getting distressed. I don't know Naru and Mai so I cannot compare their cases too. You already said that Seishin's likely to have romantic feelings for Toshio (doesn't mean it's canon... GUH ;;), so I don't know whether that statement is about 'canon' as in 'established relationship' or just 'plain romantic feelings from both parties' in Ghost Hunt? Toshio and Seishin are two guys... not to mention some major conflicts between them. I think their case is different from Naru and Mai. Could 'unhappy ending' here doesn't only mean one thing? It could be both 'oh no, they don't like each other romantically' and 'they actually like each other (or at least one has one-sided love for the other) but NO THEY'RE NOT MEANT TO ENTER RELATIONSHIP'. Or Ono pretty much could see that we'd be all over Toshio/Seishin so she made this as preventive measure.
uh.
anyway, I'm rather curious: what if Toshio has the Shiki gene? Worse, what if he has the Jinrou gene? I think it's good idea that Takae is killed and not having her blood sucked, this way we won't even get the slightest of idea if she can even rise. Being a Jinrou is better for him though, technically speaking, since they're basically still living beings and not dependent on humans' lives. But if he ever turns into either one I figure he'd immediately kill his own self.
On a rather unrelated note: I have a Shiki (Toshio/Seishin) fic prompt, which I initially want to write myself, but I'm not sure if I'm skilled enough at English and am just plain lazy and actually cannot write, sooo yeahh. I've never written any fanfic too.
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As for the full context of Ono's statements, I went ahead and translated it in full here as another anonyfan expressed interest.
I don't think "there's nobody else to pair them with" is justification for a ship being canon (and I also really like Ozaki/Ritsuko, which is utterly unsupported in canon but less of an asspull than the usual contenders--Tatsumi/Ozaki, Natsuno/Ozaki). That said, during that same talk of Ono's comments on her writing, her snippet there shows she is clearly aware of typical fandom reactions and some things really haven't changed since '92. I don't think I could possibly be convinced that she didn't know there'd be a fujoshi fangasm given she made Seishin match so many gay (non-camp) stereotypes, put Toshio in an explicitly loveless marriage, made him say tsundere lines (tsundere wasn't a named type then but it's existed well before the 90s in anime/manga), and had their relationship such a central focus of the story.
That doesn't mean I think she was explicitly going for that, but I'd say she definitely didn't go out of her way to dispel the predictable reaction, even as someone aware of and stressed by fan reactions to the point of wanting to avoid writing her mains into romances.
Edit: I've seen a lot of fanfic run with the "Ozaki = potential Jinrou?" idea. I personally think if he got Jinrou'd, he'd basically pull a Natsuno. He'd be mostly indistinguishable from a normal human besides an accelerated healing rate. He could try biting every single villager to protect them from being controlled, and also get a strength boost from the blood, but somehow I din't think it'd be in his best interests to try arguing for them to let him do that no matter how strong a strategy it is. He could essentially run the exact same game against them he did as a normal human though. As a regular Shiki, I think he'd still try to subvert them, but would be in a much more difficult position... which is to say one that would be extremely interesting.
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-08 04:54 am (UTC)(link)Ah, I didn't mean 'they're most likely to be canon' because there are nobody to pair them with. It's because they're the main focus of the story and have the most curious dynamic. Both of them are pretty much the most important person to one another. (That said, I'm quite canon-strict) I'm quite aware of Toshio being fond of Ritsuko, especially in the anime, but the way Toshio being fond of Seishin tops it every time, in my opinion.
'Main characters won't be paired off (I assume with each other?)' as in... They will not feel romantic love for each other EVER or they may feel romantic love for each other but will not get into relationship for various reason? If it's the former, then wahhh too bad, if it's the latter, then... It's better (for me) because I pretty much don't really mind their sad ending and future (read: don't really want to think about it lest I get distressed) I pretty much only care about the possibility of them having romantic feelings for each other (to a certain degree) throughout the course of the story.
I've begun asking by the way, starting from my sister. I'm starting to get some ideas from our discussion, it's great 8D
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I do know that yaoi back in those days was generally expected not to have a happy ending. Like you, I'm more interested in possibilities than endings. Two people mutually in love who never say or consummate it would still qualify as "canon" to me as long as the romantic interest, sentiment or desire to be so is expressed to the audience.
I'm excited to hear what kind of ideas you're getting; I also hope you end up inspired and writing something after all!
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-08 06:43 am (UTC)(link)I don't know how significant Naru and Mai's bond is to the story, are them only being friends and partners already enough, or is it needed that they're so much more? Assume that Ono primarily only does what is needed (despite it may not really pleases her. I don't think she'll refrain from writing things which she doesn't particularly like if those are actually needed for the story). While Seishin and Toshio, their bond is needed to move the plot, for their arcs themselves and even extended to stuffs other than that. Their bond is quite central to the story that it's only logical if it's intended to be something very deep, and usually, the involvement of romantic feelings (even if they're not the the most prominent thing in their bond, just merely this hidden thing) will give it so much status and value, which proves how important and central it is -- for both of them, to the story in general.
If this is only a typical shounen work which mainly works around friendship first and romance later (the romance isn't even always vital -- especially if the love interest isn't a terribly important character) -- then I suppose it merely being friendship is enough. But this is more of an adult work (isn't it?) and two adults being all like that in adult works usually have something more (maybe not particularly romantic feelings, but there are other than merely friendship). (eh, I probably sound like I'm undermining friendship but) to a lot of people, any bond in fictional works will feel so much more if it involves romantic feelings. Or if they feel like it does. They will recognize it as something vital instantly. (and everyone knows that Seishin and Toshio's bond is very significant)
...Uh, that's just my opinion.
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The problem for me in declaring it romantic is the lack of anything to distinguish it as distinctly romantic. Consider Motoko and Kanami. Very similar even if not as central to the work as Seishin and Ozaki. Neither of us would mind if they were a couple I'm sure, but did either of us think them a romantic couple? I may be wrong, but I suspect if either of us did or do think that of them from here on, it'd be as a consequence of supposing if the criteria that work for the pair we want (Ozaki/Seishin) match them too, they're a couple too, rather than thinking they're a couple by the criteria themselves. That suggests our criteria needs fine tuning.
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-12-08 07:13 pm (UTC)(link)If we talk about feelings, they're certainly there. So far in the novels, Toshio shows more fondness/affection regarding Seishin, while Seishin's mostly trapped in his own thoughts/shows a degree of annoyance regarding Toshio. Doesn't mean it's all that though, in my opinion. I'm also in the opinion that Toshio at times doesn't go easy on Seishin because he's fond of him.
I'm aware that it doesn't feel enough though, especially from Toshio's end. I can see that Seishin's his most treasured partner, and that he thinks of them as partners. One set, one package. I have ideas, but they still need some more considering. Uh, I certainly have to consult people more...
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When I first tried to watch the anime (I got distracted and put it down halfway through the first episode, I'm so glad I went back) I hadn't previously read the manga so I was a bit jarred by the art style before quickly warming up to it, and even was too busy admiring it to want to draw fanart. I'm loving the novel, it makes me want to draw so much. The more I read the more I fall in love with Shiki, it's becoming one of my favourite series and I'm now looking into other stuff the author has done...
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Toshio and Seishin's seiyuu discuss the anime, the hair, and the obscene length of the novel.
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