Sinnesspiel (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
sinnesspiel) wrote2013-11-07 11:49 pm
sinnesspiel) wrote2013-11-07 11:49 pm
Shiki Novel Translations 8.1
1
On the morning of the fifteenth, Toshio was roused from sleep by a single telephone ringnig. Rubbing at his sleepy eyes, he reluctantly picked up the receive, which let out a dismayed woman's voice. What was being shouted, what it was saying, he couldn't really tell.
"I don't know who this is but, could I get you to calm down for me?" Toshio bit back a yawm. Good grief, he realized. It was finally Bon, a day off, and he thought he'd be freed from early morning examinations. "---Calm down. I'm going to ask you some questions, try to answer them for me. Who are you?"
This is Shimizu, said a voice at its wits end. It was a half crying scream raised out in accusation.
"Shimizu---" Toshio suddenly felt himself waking up quickly. "Shimizu-san's wife? Did something happen with Megumi-chan?"
The woman broke down crying into the phone. From the bitter voice, he could only pick up bits and parts of words. Megumi, breathing, dead, even shaking her.
"I'm coming now, within fifteen minutes. Is that all right?"
He said firmly, hanging up the phone without waiting for an answer. He didn't know the gist of things but what did did know was that Megumi's condition had taken a sudden turn.
Rushing out of the room without a moment's delay, he received a suspicious look from Takae and Kyouko who poked their faces out.
"What is this ruckus?"
"Her condition took a sharp turn. Shimizu-san's place's Megumi-chan."
Dear, said Takae, at a loss for words. Kyouko looked most unamused as she let out a yawn.
"I'm going."
Takae arched a brow as she watched Toshio half-jog down the hall to the bathroom, stripping off his night clothes. Hurried noises came from within the bathroom. Kyouko yawned again, going up the steps. Takae called up after her.
"At least put together something to wear, won't you?"
Kyouko's legs, bare from the camisole down, stopped on the steps. She looked down at Takae from halfway up the staircase.
"You needn't worry."
Feeling something mocking in those words, Takae looked up at Kyouko with sharp eyes. Even if she said that, there had never been a time in her life when she'd went out dressed decently, this girl!
"An emergency case could come blustering in, so if you don't at least make yourself presentable to whoever may come flying in, it will be troubling. It may be hot, but that is---"
Takae's words were cut down flatly.
"It doesn't trouble me at all," she said, putting one hand on her hip, the other on the banister. She made a performance of crossing her shapely, white legs. Takae could feel the blood rushing to her face.
"Now that is simply not funny!"
"Whoever does come flying in will at least know that they're paying a sudden visit while we're asleep in bed, so they'll just have to overlook such things."
"Kyouko-san----"
Toshio nudged past Takae as she had started to speak.
"Mom, move, please."
Kyouko revealed a hint of a smile, at which Takae could feel herself blushing hotly. Without seeming to realize the situation between the two, Toshio hurried up the steps. Kyouko called after him.
"Nee, I'm really sleepy..."
Toshio's tone was unambiguous. "Don't worry about it. Go to bed."
Kyouko looked triumphantly down at Takae, stretching ostentatiously as she climbed the stairs. Takae was for the moment too overwhelmed with emotion to do anything but stand there.
Not even sparing the time to shave, Toshio came rushing to the Shimizu house just over ten minutes after having hung up the phone. He got out of the car with his medical bag and hurried to the entryway, the door opened as it they were inside waiting. Still in her nightwear, Hiroko clung to Toshio was if she were drowning.
"Megumi is---Megumi!"
Nodding and giving a pat to the sobbing Hiroko's shoulder, he let himself in and up to the second story in a hurry. The door with the stuffed animal hanging off of it was left open, Shimizu seen standing there dumbfouded.
"Shimizu-san." Shimizu turned to face Toshio who had called out to him. The color of his face changed quickly. In an instant, realizing the rage openly on his face and ashamed of it, he turned away. When Toshio entered the room Shimizu's own father Tokurou sat in the shadow of the doorway covering his face. Toshio quietly took in a deep breath.
---It's possible that it's the worst possible scenario.
Having stepped into the room and turned his eyes towards the bed, he determined it would be hard to draw any other conclusion. The girl laid out in the bed's facial muscles were slack, her features having visibly changed. It meant she was dead. And furthermore, that it wasn't something that had just happened moments ago.
Hearing Hiroko call for Megumi as she came up the stairs, Toshio sat his bag down at her bedside. For the time being he took ahold of the hand laying atop the summer towel like blanket. Indeed it was cool, and the softness of the living was clearly lost to it now.
He quietly sought a pulse. He couldn't feel one at all. Even feeling at her neck, there was nothing. Beneath her lightly closed eyelids, her pupils were dilated. He opened his bag and took out his stethoscope, sliding it softly just beneath the neckline of her clothing but, it was completely silent. Her breath and her heart rate were both completely ceased. Letting out a breath, Toshio removed the stethoscope.
"----I knew it, she's dead, isn't she?"
The voice of Shimizu lingering behind him sounded as if it were being murmured through grit teeth.
"She is dead."
No, Hiroko voiced. "I mean, Doctor, didn't you say that Megumi had anemia? Would plain anemia be, would it---"
"Won't you stop it?" Shimizu said in an angry, low voice. "This isn't the Junior Doctor's fault. You take grandpa and look after him."
"But..."
"Go."
Toshio turned around just as Hiroko was putting a hand on Tokurou's arm, sobbing. Tokurou covered his face as he pulled her along out of the room. While being taken out of the room as if being practically carried, Hiroko cast a glare filled with resentment towards Toshio.
Toshio let out a deep breath.
"I don't know what you'll think of me saying this but, my condolences."
"Why did Megumi die?"
"That's something we won't know unless we examine her," Toshio said as he turned his eyes towards Megumi's bed. Her night closed were undisturbed, and her bedding wasn't in disarray. Her limbs were splayed in a calm position, so at least there was no mistake that Megumi hadn't suffered.
"Do people die from simple anemia?"
Shimizu was trying with all his might to suppress the blame in his voice, but he wasn't very successful.
"In cases where the anemia is a symptom of some other deficiency or defect, it is possible."
"Some other deficiency or---"
Remaining seated, Toshio turned and looked up at the bristling Shimizu.
"Anemia is the name of a symptom, not the name of a sickness. There are times when anemia just happens but, there are times when something malfunctions in the body, and anemia occurs because of that. Normally, in those cases, there are signs that that's the case, though."
"Are you saying that's what happened to Megumi?"
"I don't know. At this point I can't say anything without an analysis. At the very least, if we had the results of the blood sample I'd taken the other day, I might know something but unfortunately the results haven't come back yet. It's right over the Bon holiday."
"Bon Holiday...." At Shimizu's groaning voice, Toshio let out a breath.
"I hate mincing words. Moreover because I do know you, Shimizu-san, I don't want to sugar coat it. The other day, when I visited, I'd taken a sample of Megumi-chan's blood. I sent that for analysis. The results haven't come in yet. It's because the lab is closed for Bon. Of course, it wasn't as if there were no ways I could have had it sooner, and it wasn't as if I couldn't have done the most basic level analysis myself. But all the same, I didn't think that there was a need to hurry, at least not at that point."
"Anemia can be caused by something wrong in the body. Even knowing there was that possibility?"
"I'll acknowledge that it's a possibility but in Megumi-chan's case, I couldn't think that was the case. ---I couldn't think of it as anything but ordinary anemia. Because I knew there was a possibility that wasn't the case, I sent the sample out for the lab. But, I didn't think there was a need to hurry the results. It was because Megumi-chan's condition wasn't severe enough that I'd thought to hurry it. If there was a severe enough defect, there would definitely have been symptoms, and I mean ones other than anemia. If there had been other symptoms that resembled a serious illness, I wouldn't have even hurried the test results, I'd have called for an ambulance and had her taken to the National Hospital. But, it wasn't like that. It looked like simple anemia, and even it it wasn't simple anemia, it looked like there was time to look at the test results, to re-examine her, and to find the exact cause."
"Then, why did Megumi die?"
"Even to me her death is a fluke. If I tried to predict the cause of death here and now, I'd have to say it was simple anemia, which I can't say. ---The truth is, I'm the one who's the most shocked."
When he had examined her the other day, indeed he hadn't really seen any particular symptoms beyond anemia. Nor did she have any particular medical history of such. Megumi was the type of girl who would make a fuss over the most trivial symptoms, and furthermore had a tendency to fake sick. She'd say this or that was hurting but no matter how many times she came for examination, no actual cause was found. ---Or, did that become a forgone conclusion?
Toshio had been wondering to himself when analyzing Megumi's body. Was there the possibility that he already decided for himself, and because of that, overlooked signs of something more serious?
(I can't say there's not...)
Reluctant as he was, he couldn't not acknowledge that. In truth, when Toshio had come to do the examination, he was surprised to see that Megumi even had anemia. After the fuss over her disappearance, when he'd heard that Megumi didn't seem well, Toshio's first thought was that she was faking sick. When thinking about what an incident it had become, Megumi, who had caused the fuss, it was indeed true that he'd thought she was faking feeling bad out of fear of being scolded by the Shimizus.
Looking at Megumi from the outside, there weren't any injuries or anything out of place. Her body temperature had dropped, and rigor mortis was setting in. There was some light postmortem lividity, and her corneas were beginning to go opaque. But, there was no doubt that she was dead, and furthermore that a few hours had passed since she had died.
"Late at night---or, more precise, this morning, I think. From one to three in the morning." Toshio murmured, turning back to Shimizu. "What should we do?"
"What---do you mean?"
"I don't know the precise cause of death. And it's been over twenty four hours since I'd last examined her. If I may, I'd like to recommend a medical autopsy. At the least, I'd like to take a blood sample and perform a bone marrow marrow aspiration, but I need Shimizu-san's permission."
"That's not funny!" Shimizu's face went crimson as he shouted, and then, surprised by the anger in his own voice, he lowered his face. "---No, I'm sorry."
"You want to hit me, I understand that, Shimizu-san."
"No.... I don't have any excuse. That isn't what I meant. But, an autopsy is no good. She's just a little girl. Even if we knew the cause of death, Megumi won't come back. ...Please, just spare her."
The way he's able to control himself is amazing, Toshio thought. He probably wanted to wring Toshio's neck and shout at him. Knowing Shimizu's personality, if it could explain what happened, he might have agreed to letting him take what he needed. But, he was hesitant to stimulate any emotion which might elicit further shameful behavior from Shimizu.
(Or maybe it's that I want a way out of this.)
Simple anemia, he'd said. To be sure, that was a mistake. And there was the possibility that it wasn't an inevitable mistake, but one based on his preconceived assumptions. Megumi's corpse was irrevocable evidence of that.
"Then, shall we say the time of death is 2:00 AM, and that the cause of death is acute heart failure?"
To Toshio's question, Shimizu nodded.
8D
(Anonymous) 2013-11-09 10:25 am (UTC)(link)Oh yeah, it's around early to mid August now then. Unlike the anime and manga, the novel actually doesn't regularly mention dates or tomobiki-senshi-and the likes, it's unexpected. (as I thought it'd be something taken straight from the novel)
I suppose there'll be a lot of Natsuno afterwards (Toshio as well) yay I've missed Natsuno :>
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Aaaand this is where Toshio's confidence in his medical abilities is projected to take a nosedive. With all the previous deaths was like, it happens *shrug* but now he thinks that it could be prevented and...I would not like to be in his shoes!
So after Megumi's death, it'll be Tohru soon (or not? It's about a month after her death if I'm not mistaken) So that means we'll be getting to see Tohru soon and have him be characterized and given sympathy right before his untimely end :(
I was also wondering about the timeline; I remembered that at the beginning of October is when Seishin and Toshio are clued into what's going on, and then in November it really starts getting real. (Oh my gosh I can't believe it's November already?! My bday's just around the corner!)
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Ah, and I just saw the picture today! I can't view tinypic at my day job, so I just now got to it; the background really does feel like something out of the manga, and black and white suits him well! I like his "I'm not scared..." fretting expression and pose. It's all very Seishin! The black jagged shading brings out the broom texture well, too. I've never been able to make black and white manga style shading work very well; I'm a little jealous.
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I'm glad you like it! I hadn't really drawn in a long time, so it was fun taking some time to do that again. I think I spent more time just looking up pictures of Seishin rather than actually drawing... I used the Paint.NET program to digitally color it; I considered outlining it to give it that streamlined anime look, but I really liked the manga motif that looks like it's drawn with really light pencil and is faded in some places, so I kept my lineart and just filled it in with color. I'm especially happy that you noticed the broom, because I took special care with it! A good monk deserves a good broom, after all. The shading wasn't a terribly complicated deal, what I just do is I select some random areas and then color them inside with black and then erase the parts I don't want shaded; the process is kind of hard to explain. But yeah, I really enjoyed getting a chance to draw! Any suggestions for the next illustration?
I didn't like using Tinypic, but that was the only method I could come up with at the time to send the picture (and the resolution got a bit worse)! If it's easier I could maybe just send it by email or something next time?
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I think it looks pretty awesome as is; I use old Jasc PSP 8.0 on my stuff so I think I get what you're saying with the layers, but I just casually draw once every few months. I think black and white or two tone coloring is actually a lot harder, since you can't just smudge and fudge until you get the vague idea of the shape; you really have to pin-point what the defining parts of everything is and then make it work with the light source. Black and white art is great! Then the highlighted green eyes are another nice layer to that. His face is still delicate even with the sharpness black and white tends to create, too! It's really cool. As for what's next, as we get more and more to stuff the anime covered, new stuff becomes more and more slim pickings, huh? Any particular Ozaki scene you've been fond of so far?
Tinypic works just fine! I'm just limited on what sites I can view at my M-F job, and every image hosting site seems to be blocked so, whichever works for you I can likely access at home/my weekend job just fine.
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I also like how they characterized Megumi; like, you can't really blame Toshio for not taking her seriously. In the anime, she was just a kind of stupid lovesick girl who really didn't like the village, so I could kind of sympathize with her as an innocent nobody. But in the novel, now we know that she is like the girl who cried 'wolf', she always looks for attention and takes everything for granted. Plus, she is a total bitch to Kaori, which isn't even played as much as comic relief in this version. Nobody is really a 'good person' here, are they!
I didn't know you drew too! I'd love to see some of your work if you don't think it's too embarrassing to show me! Yeah, solid shading is one of the hardest, though, to get right. I was actually thinking of maybe blurring it a bit to make him more 3D, but upon careful consideration I decided that bold shading just /went/ more! I couldn't resist coloring his eyes...now, I think that maybe if I made the black and white tree background green, I could have made his eyes purposefully match it? I'm best at drawing girly faces; Sotoba's Next Top Model was a piece of cake.
Now I'm nervous about drawing Ozaki, since he's not very girly! I'll have to think about what scene, but then again I have plenty of time to draw them all. I was thinking of Ozaki sitting by Megumi's bedside, but that's not novel-only...right now, I'm leaning toward the scene where Ozaki and Seishin are strolling and they see Tatsumi. I'm also a Tatsumi fan, so a scene with Ozaki and him would be gold! I'm thinking of using a different style rather than monochrome for this drawing, maybe using more heavy soft shading this time just for variety. But it would also be cool to do monochrome but not black and white. Like what if I just colored the whole thing with different shades of green? That'd be cool!
Tinypic it is! I can sort of see why they'd block image hosting sites...but Dreamwidth is not blocked?
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I draw a bit, but I should probably warn you that there's porn on my Pixiv of the het and yaoi (and soon to be yuri) variety, so you probably shouldn't browse in class if you choose to browse at all. http://www.pixiv.net/member.php?id=1823539
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Do you read a lot of Japanese to keep up your knowledge of the language? If I knew Japanese well (or at least well enough to read), I'd get the hardest books I could and comb through them slowly with a dictionary. Or at least, that's how I imagine myself doing it. I'm all about 'Go all the way, or don't go at all'.
Aww, It won't let me see all of the art because I'm not registered, but it's really good! I'd probably understand it better if I'd finally get to watching FMA~ I feel like my Seishin drawing should just sit down compared to that, though! Also, I was expecting like, hardcore hentai but it's not even that bad, from what I saw (maybe that's because I couldn't see it all, though). It would be cool to see you draw Seishin, too!
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I get my manga in full monthly scans; so when Gangan comes out, I get the whole magazine, same with whatever versions of Jump, etc. that I follow at the time. Shiki was in Jump SQ, and every time you say it's time to quit Jump it never works out, so give up and accept that a man will always be a boy at heart whose first love was Jump and save yourself the trouble and just pick it up when you're at the store along with strawberry milk. ...Eh? Have I segued into Gintama talk, now?
If you don't have an account, you're spared the worst pictures. You're also not able to look at them up close, right? That's the only reason you can mistake mine for decent; you're looking at thumbnails.
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What is Jump? I'm guessing that it's one of those magazines that serialize manga--is it very popular? Maybe not, huh, because Shiki didn't really catch on. What did you think of it when you read the first installment?
Oh, well that's very PG of them! So one could like, direct their grandma to that website and she wouldn't catch on to the real nature of their art (unless she also makes an account.)
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Masao's easy to hate because he's an honest amalgamation of our worst traits. Yet the story is well written enough that he's not a straw man. He's frumpy that Hiromi gets so much care and attention when sick and that he's told to just sleep it off, and indeed when he does get ill, he IS ignored to death (not that anyone could really help him). He might be being pettily jealous over a kid and may treat the kid horribly, but he's not factually wrong in his assessment that the kid is getting preferential treatment, whether it's morally right or wrong.
Jump is a major publisher of manga with many publications both monthly and weekly and even special editions. Shounen Jump, which specializes in shounen manga is by far their biggest sub-magazine. They're behind such mega franchises as One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Rurouni Kenshin, Death Note, Prince of Tennis, Kochikame, D. Greyman, Shaman King, To Love, and Dragon Ball, all of which were/are huge cash cow home run titles. Shiki was in their monthly publication, Jump SQ. I think it was actually pretty successful; it got a drama CD ran as an extra to subscribers, and later a high budget anime made off of it after all. It's just unlike every other series above, it had an ending already set so it couldn't be serialized indefinitely as long as it was popular. Harder to stay fired up over something with no new material.
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The thing I don't like about him though is how he dismisses the villagers; well, he could be right in some ways, because the village is dysfunctional even before the Shiki come, but what I mean is his whole attitude moving into the village: 'I don't want to have any part of this so I'm gonna look down on other people and keep to myself'. But if he's stuck in the village, he might as well make the best of it and get the most out of this experience. He himself said that you should live in a way so you have no regrets, and I interpreted that as saying to get the most out of every experience that comes before you, be it positive or negative. That's just my outlook, though. Natsuno's a good character, to be sure...I just disagree with him a lot!
I noticed that he's supposed to look a lot like Cain too...I couldn't really get a feel for why, though. I couldn't find any parallels between him and Cain's story. Some possible interpretations I thought included Tohru as Abel, the Shiki who follows him; also, if we're going by hair color, Abel could be Tatsumi; as Jinrou, they're 'brothers' and so Natsuno kills his 'brother' (and himself) to set himself free from the village. But then I have a problem because he doesn't even become a jinrou in the novel >:P
So yeah though, I agree that Masao's observations are accurate--I guess it's the way he presents it that are sympathetic. I almost feel bad for him when he's ignored by his family in favor of the little grandkids, in the anime at least! In the manga if I remember right, doesn't he beat up that one kid sometimes and smash his Lego buildings? Like their parents were saying he gets "mysterious bruises" and it's obviously Masao. If there's a sure way to get the audience to hate a character's guts, it's to make him hurt children.
I didn't know Shiki had a drama CD! Is there an English translation floating around somewhere by any chance? There are series that are relatively short and have remained popular with no material, though; ones like Blue Exorcist (which is really short, but still compared to like Bleach and stuff?) and FLCL (only six episodes). I wish Shiki got Anime Classic status like Evangelion or Death Note.
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I think Natsuno looking like Cain is either (1) a design fluke or (2) secondary symbolism. If it's 1, that's a little pathetic given otherwise the artist has gone out of his way to make every character look distinct, if not absolutely insane with those hair styles. If it's 2, I think it's because Natsuno, at least in the novels, lives the ideal Seishin is trying to develop and flesh out: being yourself to the end, even if it means having no place in society. Natsuno has no Abel or "public face." Given Seishin has never met Natsuno, I don't think the writing can mean much more than that in regards to him: its primary symbolism is, after all, from Seishin about Seishin.
The drama CD can be read along with the manga more or less perfectly. Pop open the manga and follow along. Here's part 1, with links in the description to parts 2-4 which make up the entire CD. If someone rips the video and Youtubes it, I'll be happy to provide timed subtitles (which can be added, via text-file in all of 10 seconds as closed captions.) Heck, if someone rips the video and sends it to me, I can Youtube it myself if they really want.
I prefer the anime cast, but I'm also a huge fan of Ozaki's anime seiyuu so bias ahoy. I'd be interested in ripping lines from each for side by side comparisons. One example that sticks out is, regarding Mieko, "Omoshirou darou? Tsumari Mieko baa-san wa koko nan nichi ka shitai to kurashite ta koto ni naru'n da." The anime version had a much more sly, cynical tone, and in general makes him sound more dry. But the drama one sounds more shounen-hero like and dependable. As for Seishin, he also sounds firmer and less wistful or like he's "fronting" or behind some thoughtful veneer. Megumi sounds more air-headed or vapidly dismissive and mean in the drama than she does aggressively scornful in the anime (that's not to say the lines themselves aren't aggressively scornful, just the level of thought or vitrol it sounds like she's put into it). Natsuno sounds older, possibly too old, but his withdrawn and huffy nature is still about the same. Kaori's a little less "shy" sounding but about the same...
Is Blue Exorcist that big? I'm surprised, it's pretty new. I thought it was okay but really generic and dropped it, but then, I did the same to Bleach and it's huge, so it shows what I know. Gainax, on the other hand, has a knack for creating classics. (Eva, FLCL, Lagaan...) I'm glad if FLCL is still well known and watched, though. It's one it took me time to even realize I liked as much as I did.
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It's possible that in the novel Cain was just supposed to be straight symbolism of Seishin, but the mangaka just interpreted the Cain/Natsuno similarities himself and decided to make them look like that. In that case, both of your theories would be right depending which medium you're looking at. Also the novel's main character is undoubtedly Seishin, with Toshio getting quite some screentime as well, but the manga is split up between those two and Natsuno's story; they only overlap at the very end when Toshio and Natusno join forces (also different from the original story). Now that the mangaka gives Natsuno all this extra significance, his similarity to Cain in Seishin's novel can just be another method of giving him more screentime. If you really grasp at straws though, there are more parallels between Natsuno and the Cain character: both are exiled from the place they want to be in. Natsuno's move to Sotoba is like an exile for him, so that could be it.
I didn't realize the drama CD followed the manga so exactly; I kinda expected one of those where the characters talk about random crap that's not really related to the main plotline. Still cool to listen to though, but I couldn't get used to the different voices! Out of the whole cast, I'd have to say that Natsuno sounded the most like himself, although the last time I watched Shiki it was while checking out the English dub, so I'm not sure. I thought the English dub wasn't too bad, compared to some. Probably not as good as the Japanese, but it's rare when dubs are, isn't it? I'm just glad they didn't butcher it.
I would happily rip the video but I don't know how...I'm not a stranger to downloading videos (mostly Youtube videos by going to one of the sites like savetube or savevid which makes it really easy) and I tried it on a few, but none of them support the website. If only it was on like dailymotion or something. But I followed along pretty well with the manga on my phone, so it's all good.
I liked the seiyuu who voiced Ozaki too, is he pretty famous? I've probably heard him in anime other than Shiki, but it's hard for me to differentiate voices, especially if they're Japanese. He's head and shoulders above English Ozaki though--/that/ one sounded like some angry 40 year old sergeant all the time.
I gave Blue Exorcist a try too, but it didn't seem like my cup of tea so to speak. I found it kind of random and lacking likable characters, but the animation was really nice. I didn't think it's that popular, but I always see posts like "The Most Popular Anime! Bleach! One Piece! Naruto! Blue Exorcist!" ...Blue Exorcist? I don't think it should be on par with all of those. The only one I've watched the whole way through was Bleach, and I can't say it was good...but I watched it all. It was one of those shows where you're like, this is so boring. How is this show popular. *hits next episode* But those anime are the ones that are the most successful because it takes real talent to be able to make people watch even if they know they should stop. The only part I thought was really truly good was the Hueco Mundo arc; the Ulquiorra vs. Ichigo fight is enough to wipe away all regrets about sitting through 190 episodes to get to it.
I watched FLCL once, I think what's so good about it is that you can't really understand it and it's so random it just /works/; that's why a lot of people like it. You're right that it's probably an acquired taste, though. It didn't make a huge impression on me, but a few weeks down the line I was still like "dang, that anime doe."
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I've never seen the dub and consider it better for my blood pressure to avoid dubs when possible; I'll will spend more money to import a series than I will to buy it domestically (where I would still have the Japanese track *and* subtitles to watch with others who can't just go with it raw), because I don't want to support dubs. That said, I do wonder how they'd handle so many of the aggressively Japanese aspects of this show, such as, say, Sunako hating to be called -chan, or the fortune telling aspect of the days. I've read on some sites it's "Miss" which makes so little sense it really is good that the dub isn't so pervasive in the fandom as to be unavoidable. Miss Sunako would only offend her if she found it overly polite (just the opposite of the reason she'd dislike the diminutive -chan, thus more than just a bad translation, would be an outright subversive one) or if she was some kind of pre-op FTM whose body tragically keeps reverting to its genetically female default after every attempted gender reassignment surgery, forcing her to continue to live in a form identified as female when deep down inside, she's more than man enough for our stock-homo monk's in-explicit proclivities.
The thing about FLCL is I thought I hated it after watching it the first time, even though I must have liked it as I eagerly went through it all in about two shots. Then I watched it again, thought "I'm enjoying this and enjoyed it a lot last time too" then, when it was over, somehow thought I hated it again. When I ended up watching it for the third time in club, realizing, again, I'm enjoying it, I could only concede that I must in fact like it, never quite sure why I'm always convinced I don't after the fact. I'd think it was just me, but somebody else in the club made the exact same comment on their love-hate relationship with it.
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(Whenever I type 'shiki' the spell checker wants to change it to 'dashiki'. "Sotoba is being overrun by da Shiki")
If I knew Japanese well enough not to rely on subtitles, I would probably shun dubs too. But some people need them, like if reading subtitles gets you a headache after a while, you might just want to switch to dubs...provided there's a good one. I don't think anime should be dubbed unless the voice actors are actually willing to, you know, make an effort. But Shiki had a comparatively good dub in my opinion. The voices sounded awkward sometimes, but they kept within a good range of vocal expressiveness for the most part and didn't sound too apathetic or too animated. That Sunako scene you mentioned caught my attention too, that was probably the biggest flop: she hissed out "Do NOT call me miss. I HATE that word." Well after someone says something weird like that, who wouldn't be kind of wary of her? Maybe they meant to have Seishin say it condescendingly like sometimes when adults refer to kids like 'aww, it's little Miss Sunako' or 'hey Missy' but it didn't work out that way. But then again, if you were to make a dub, how else would you say it? For the fortune telling days, they just wrote captions under it like "Tomobiki" spelled out with no explanation.
Another reason why one would sometimes go for dubs if they can't understand Japanese is because while reading, it's hard sometimes to make out every detail and it results with missing a lot of what's happening. Hayao Miyazaki of the Ghibli fame said he supported dubs because his works are meant to be "watched, not read."
That pretty much summarizes my experience with FLCL too. I usually don't like cracky shows that don't make sense; some people enjoy watching shows that have no point, but it's hard for me because I always try to /make/ them have a point and then I end up not enjoying the show at all. But then, the characters were cool; the animation was cool; the soundtrack was cool. What's not to like about it?
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The problem with supposing the scene could be saved by Seishin's delivery or with "Little Miss" (which is condescending in English) Seishin does not in fact say it condescendingly, he's not condescending; as shown in the novel, he's at a loss for how to refer to her because using no honorific is rude, and using -san on a little kid actually would cross into condescending even if he didn't mean it that way. Any way to make it work requires warping someone's delivery and characterization. If I were scripting it, I'd stick with -chan and the audience would just have to suck it up and accept that a Japanese work's going to involve Japanese cultural nuances. Don't like it, then don't watch foreign media; there's no lack of media made for and by an English language audience, with just as many nuances and cultural elements that are intuitive to the target audience.
That also sums up how I feel about dubs. Reading subtitles gives you a headache? Pick a medium you can understand naturally; a dubbed version of a series is not the series, it's a fan interpretation of it, like a fanfic or doujinshi.. You know, besides the fact that most of those have to develop independent stories, visuals, pacing, etc. and dubbing is just piggy backing. Either it's a "fan" re-interpretation and not canon, or it's, at the very best, a close but imperfect approximation. Indeed, many textual translations are going to be just that, close but imperfect, but subtitles remove the language barrier with the least possible alteration--it doesn't replace the entire original vocal track, which was cast, directed, and line by line approved by the director. Portions left to the voice actor's discretion and interpretation are as much a part of the creative team as anyone else--indeed, many times voice actors lead to changed lines and inflections by discussing issues and differences with writers and directors. Ozaki's seiyuu happens to be pretty well versed in military dialogue and suggest rewrites for many of his lines (and others) as Colonel Roy Mustang in FMA. Sometimes the script even just says "ad lib" trusting the cast as the one expressing the spirit of the character to best fill in certain comedic or space filling dialogue. If the voice is important enough that "good" dub acting or casting is important at all and a computerized dry reading of every line would not suffice, then it's important enough not to change the existing material for sheer convenience. Yes, non-native Japanese viewers will not have the same experience if they must read it but even the most hypothetically accurate dub will also only be an approximation, and a de-facto more invasive one when compared to the most hypothetically accurate sub script. For those who find themselves distracted from the visuals, it may even be necessary, after watching with subs, to watch it again raw knowing the story from the first time through. It wouldn't be the only type of work that has to be experienced multiple times to fully appreciate.
Of course some people will just prefer the dub, differences and all, just as many, many, many, many people prefer fanon takes on characters to canon. The difference, and my chief problem with dubs, is that it's considered a canonically equal alternative. It isn't, and being licensed does not make it so any more than a fandub; title holders and writers approve of all levels of doujinshi and fanworks as expression and promotion, but you certainly would not consider any of them canon. You can analyze a character's actions and as much of the story as is left intact by the dub, but anything that can be read vocally from the characters or even tonally from a scene is invalid in analysis of a dub. It's, at best, an analysis of the dub staff's take on things.
I'll read fanwork and look at fan art. I could even approve of and consider watching fandubs as a fan's exploration of the characters and an expression of their take on the series. But is a paid studio cast acting out of expression, analysis and love of the work, and is the paycheck entirely secondary? If they could afford to do it unpaid, would they, aside from perhaps as a career move (like workers working unpaid overtime for the reputation points it earns with a boss)? That'd make me more likely to watch, certainly, as a fellow fan, but it doesn't make it canon. And unless it varies significantly enough to stand on its own merits without being utterly dependent on the existing script, music, etc., such as as a parody whose value would be entirely in its (likely humorous) changes, I am probably not interested in it as a commercial work any more than I would be in looking at fanart that's just a trace or copy of official art. I'd pay money for a hilarious parody dub, or subs for that matter. I'll spend money to avoid supporting productions of standard dubs or even subs, if a series were released subbed only with poor subs.
This isn't some "Hail Glorious Nippon" otaku sentiment, either (not that I deny otaku or more commonly these days 'weeaboo' status); indeed, many Japanese directors oversee English voice acting in works. Biohazard (Resident Evil) is a Japanese game released with full English only acting, as far as I know. I'm not into survival platformer games, but were I, I'd have 0 problem playing it in English. The game No More Heroes, specifically seeking to name the hero something that sounded American and cool to the Japanese audience, and just stupid as hell to an actual American audience, we have Travis Touchdown leading us along a very tongue-in-cheek parody of common violent video game tropes. I as an English speaker am *intended* to have a different impression of the work. The acting is absolutely *terrible*. I am talking acting so bad I had difficulty understanding some scenes because of the tone and delivery of the lines being downright unnatural; I'd have understood it fine if it were just text because at least then I'd have a common sense native English guideline for the tone in my head. I can't tell if this is intentional as another level of parody, if it's the fact that the director is Japanese and thus not very competent at nuance and expression in the English language, or if it was left to a set of actors who, if my prior exposure to them is any indication, are kind of poor actors in general. I really don't know all the details; all I know is that the final product, good or bad, no matter whether it was intentional or just creative folly, is canon. And even if it's a parody, I can't get into it with the acting being that bad. So it's just not for me. Maybe to the Japanese good "foreign" voice acting is less important and this intolerable difference is at least the intended takeaway from me as an English speaking audience member. Just as not reading a sentence that flashes before me is impossible, setting it aside and experiencing the intended effect for the Japanese audience is sadly impossible for me.
The game was later remade with Japanese voice acting, some of the casted voices have very different tones, and the acting is solid. Not knowing if this is a dub or the actual intent of the director or what, until I hear the complete circumstances of this well acted track and its casting, I can't justify playing it. I don't even know if it's the intended take for the JP audience, now in Japanese, or just a marketing thing as most dubs are. I *want* the JP track to be validated so that I can get into the series, but there are plenty of other fun and funny games whose final and intended format I can enjoy. If decent acting is such a deal breaker for me, NMH is not for me. If a work being Japanese voiced is such a deal breaker for others, maybe Japanese media aren't for them.
Naturally, many find this elitist and will watch dubs anyways because it's in demand enough to be provided, integrity of the work be damned, perhaps even pointing out that not everything is high art enough to justifiably care for its integrity. Sex Taxi is not exactly high art. While I would like dubs to disappear, the most I can do is argue my case hoping to convert, and vote with my dollar to make them no longer sustainable.
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Same with any adaptations, really; I firmly believe that any adaptation should follow the original medium as closely as possible. No embellishments, no cuts. Which is a bummer living in America where that's all that movies do... Like last weekend I saw the Desolation of Smaug and I was extremely disappointed and put off because I'm a big Tolkien fan and have dutifully read and reread The Hobbit prior to attending the movie, only to see that almost everything in there is padding and the parts that I *would* have liked to see, they cut out. I just don't think the Hobbit should be a trilogy, I mean the book is absolutely tiny; it just doesn't need three freakin' 2 hour movies. The first movie also had a lot of changes but I didn't mind them as much because rather than adding unnecessary material (which they did, but not to that great of an extent) they added characterization and made the characters into distinct individuals that made it more enjoyable to watch their interactions. The second movie also kind of had that, but it was so way off of the charts that it was annoying more than enjoyable. I mean, characterizing canon characters is okay, but characterizing all-new characters that don't even exist in the original story is beyond lame. One thing I can say for the movies is that they don't omit as many details as The Lord of the Rings movies--but I still view the latter as a better adaptation because despite having a few flops, it was pretty faithful to the books. I, um, didn't mean to turn this into a review of The Hobbit, but I do mean that I get the analogy of dubs being like adaptations, and being not canon in general.
But then subs aren't really canon either because some things just don't translate well and some pun or double meaning may be lost on the audience if they're only reading the translation. So the only way to really get the full experience of the anime would be to actually be fluent in Japanese and watch it raw, which isn't an option for a lot of fans.
How you watch your anime can also kinda depend on how much you like it, or how important it is to you. Like if I'm a big fan of something like Shiki, I would probably watch it in subs because I want to get the full experience, I want to know as much as I can about the plot and dissect it and re-dissect it in my head. I would watch it over and over again to try to catch details that I might have missed the time before. But if I'm watching something that I don't really care about, or just watching to catch a study break, and don't particularly care about deeper meanings or details then I might be inclined to try out the dub just because it's easier to listen to and I don't care as much about accuracy.
But then if I don't need details or accuracy, why watch it in the first place?
Your argument against dubs is more solid than any others that I've seen, though; I can say I feel differently about dubs now. Most cases have their strongest point being that dubs sound unnatural and Japanese voice acting is more emotional. I'm kind of 'ehh' about that because I always considered it a cultural difference; I read that Japanese voice acting is more focused on going over the top, putting as much emotion as possible into the work, whereas English acting has always tried to make the acting sound as real-life as possible. So therefore, to someone who's used to the Japanese performances, English dubs *would* sound dull and stunted, even if the actors are really trying. With this logic, then, more calm shows with dialogue (like Shiki) would be easier to dub because there's not such a difference between vocal expression in the two languages. At the end when everyone starts shouting is when the English dub is at its worst.
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Which brings us to "subs aren't really canon either because some things just don't translate well and some pun or double meaning may be lost on the audience if they're only reading the translation." This is why I'm such a big proponent of cultural notes. I realize professional translators don't have the option of conversing with their audience during or after release, but on the flip side they are much more likely to have access to the authors to ask about nuances for the translation. In my case, the most I can do is be available to answer any questions anyone has about any speech style, etc. and to denote every pun I personally can catch. I'm going to mess up too, though I expect any paid translator for a professional publication to do better than a mostly self-taught linguistic hobbyist with less than a full year of official Japanese coursework documented. I think that is a realistic expectation. Back on topic to possibly flawed subs, it's the least invasive format to make it available to non-native speakers. A translator's failure will inevitably carry to the dub script, only to be further corrupted by the localization/lip sync process, and the new voice actors with their own spin on the line and characters. The most accurate dub will always be less accurate than a decent sub (to say nothing of the most accurate subs--a company that produces the most accurate dub would presumably be able to offer the same "most accurate" script as a sub), because the sub will at least leave the original voices and acting intact.
I'm against dubs in any language, not just Japanese to English, the exception being things like news broadcasts where a foreigner is speaking, and your audience may not be literate for subs, and other non-artistic, non-character driven works (documentaries, etc.). That said, any real or imagined international differences in acting methods are irrelevant; though it has not been my experience that Japanese voice acting is more over the top, if that were a national tendency, then either the directing staff is influenced by their culture and their preference for it is as important as anything else that's influenced the work, or they can explicitly choose to direct towards 'realistic' acting. See: Aku no Hana, which has many of the awkward quirks and pauses of normal speech, or the Japanese dub of Home Movies, which was a mostly ab-libbed work in English and thus more natural than the average English work. The Japanese dub tried to capture that.
However, whenever a character speaks 'realistically' in a work of fiction, in English, Japanese, or presumably any other language, you're going to risk them sounding awkward or even mildly retarded, because short of people trained to speak relatively free-form in public (see: practiced ad-libbers in Home Movies), nobody's lines are as smooth and decisively emoted as in fiction. There would be a lot more pauses, uhms, likes, etc. We, and writers, don't think of dialogue--including the very dialogue we speak every day--the same way it comes out in real life. Imagine if novels, even, were written with more realistic dialogue--try to transcribe a phone conversation or live conversation or two and the distinction becomes clear. Even watching or translating interviews with professional actors makes the difference pretty clear. In my experience, works in every language omit 'realism' in order to better express characterization in ways only either extremely gifted naturals or trained, practiced professional speakers can.
That said, I seem to feel dubs are at times most 'off' on subtle scenes or normal scenes than even shouting scenes, mostly because the focus then is more on the voice than the acting, or in some cases because it's clear the actor is trying to pick an emotion to put into it. Vocal casting is usually done to pick a pitch, tone, inflection, etc. that suits their image. Thus any scene that focuses on the voice itself as an expression of the character more than the specific line delivery is going to drive home the extremity of the dub casting errors--to knock on JP dubs a bit instead of English, while the dub of Disney's The Jungle Book is clearly getting as close as is probably remotely possible on a lot of the voices, Balloo the bear's pitch is just a little too low and heavy and lacks the smooth flow of Mr. Harris, so instead of street smart and laid back you just get a likable lazy idiot vibe. To begin with, that he was partially playing himself (a developed, practiced radio/TV/stand-up personality) heavily complicates any re-casting--though arguably King Louie/Louis Prima was similar, but better done).
It's also been my experience that actors who do primarily (or exclusively) dubbing works tend to be... well, bad. Like, "I can see why you're not being cast for many original works where the actual creative staff would be involved and have you as their first paid choice." Some actors do dubbing and other original roles, but in those cases I usually find they're either live action actors and not as used to modulating voice inflection, or, like they would in original works they're cast in, are more interested in crafting their own take on the character than matching the original intent; when you're the original voice, you're often a part of the creative process. Then a lot of times I think dubbing directors are just kind of crappy which damns the whole production regardless of potential acting quality; it's especially telling when the dub director is self-cast in a prominent role (see: many Former-ADV or Funimation works).
I definitely know there is no dearth of skilled North American voice actors. A buddy of mine plays some Steam games and what I've heard of those is solid; if I were into those types of games, I'd definitely play them, the voice acting wouldn't actively repel me like it does with NHM. Sadly, I am so far convinced there is indeed a lack of competent English dubbed anime/video game actors... While I'm against dubs regardless of quality, the problem with this is that that incompetent bunch is at times involved in foreign developed games that want English voice acting for whatever reason; these games are English original but acted by a cast whose resumes mostly includes dubs. I'll still play a game with them if it's at least tolerable, but if No More Heroes is any indication of what to expect from dub acting lots, I'll just have to miss out on some otherwise excellent works. Fortunately, I have enough works under my belt that even if another anime or game was never created, I think I could spend the rest of my life happily re-exploring them.
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Cultural notes are good point; I wish more subs had them. Usually when I watch something subbed like on Hulu or Youtube or something, most likely I'll miss the puns because there won't be a note at the end (unless they're really thorough--but that's what I'd do, I'd add a few minutes to the end of the episode with some notes or something). The solution to this would be to watch them at the translator's website, where you can ask questions and stuff. I don't know any though! Do you know any good websites where they add cultural notes to videos? I really like that you add cultural notes at the end of every chapter; maybe it's more effective to read them as you go, but they still bring insight to things I didn't even pick up on when reading. Well, anything that aids the understanding of a work is a plus.
I think that the best dubs probably turn out to be those that don't try too hard or too little. The absolute worst are just those that don't even bother getting rid of the original voices--they just muffle them and then have one or two different people dub over the entire cast. Russia is a repeat offender; one time, I got invited to see Cars 2, and regretted it almost right away as I realized that all they did was just paste the new voices on top of the English acting which you could still hear (and this was at the movies, like I paid to go see this)! It's doubly confusing for people who speak both languages because then the brain tries to latch on to both simultaneously and by trying to understand both, you understand nothing. One thing you can say for professional dubs is that they at least try to match up the movement of the character's mouth to the voice.
Like you said, professional voice actors who specialize in that sort of thing turn out poorly, I agree. Some may not even try that much because it's like, dubs will always be in high demand and I'll still get paid. But the worst thing is maybe if they try so hard that their voice sounds too forced and over-the-top emotional, which is what I mean by dubs that try too hard.
The best dubs would result from having a group of people who actually want to do well and put their all into it...but it's like, how often would you get that?
It's hard for me to to tell how good the Jungle Book Japanese voice acting is because I don't know Japanese well at all (and I haven't seen the movie in years, but now I think I might go watch it tonight!). But I think subtle voice differences are always a given, just because it's hard to find two people with the same vocal range--and if you can, it's really unlikely that the other will be a voice actor--so considering, Balloo's dub doesn't bother me at all. But with children's movies like these, I almost always think that it's better for kids to watch programs and hear them in their own language, too, rather than having them watch the English version with subs.
As for 'realistic speech', yeah that's also a good point because if books and movies were made so that the characters speak like they would in real life, it wouldn't be as enjoyable watching or reading them. You have not experienced struggle until you have had to make a conscious effort to eliminate all the 'uhhs' and 'umms' and 'like's from your speech. I am taking a mandatory class for speech, and I can safely say that doing that is the hardest part. Well...that and the fact that when nervous, I start speaking faster than the speed of sound.
However, if a speech is well-made and given by a talented professional, the omitted common speech patterns don't sound off at all; it goes unnoticed. Speaking like that is very businesslike, too, so if you tried to do that in real life, it wouldn't translate well to personal relationships because the hesitations, stutters, and pauses are all parts of nonverbal communication too.
So how did you learn Japanese so well? I always assumed you took college classes or something, but you say that you have less than a full year of coursework! How long did it take you to get to be able to, well, start translating stuff?
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I would rather dubs went un-made. Even kids would do well to get used to shows and things in other languages, even if it's beyond their ability to fully follow until they're literate. Disney movies are made to be kid friendly but enjoyed by all, and the subtle nuances of character is what sets Disney classics apart as really amazing cartoons. It's a real shame to lose that. They're cultural archives.
I've heard some Russian dubs; I saw part of the Russian dub of Baccano!, which kept the Japanese voices in the background with some voices talking in Russian over them, usually very flatly and quickly. I thought that was better than a full replacement dub, as it still left the original intact to some degree. I got the impression it'd be the best a deaf Russian could do to experience Baccano! since subs aren't an option for them. I didn't see more than a few seconds, but if it really is just one or two voices quickly speaking over the lines, rather than trying to replace the original cast, I'd consider that still a more accurate alternative than a full standard dub. Problems galore, naturally, least of all the problem of culture notes, but the original cast and inflections are important, so if those can still be heard, even muffled under a translator, it's better than being removed entirely.
Speed talking when nervous is pretty normal, I think. That's the funny thing about scripted or professional speech; it doesn't sound unnatural even though it takes tons of work for people to talk so smoothly. Still, that's part of why we can almost always tell if we're listening to a movie/show excerpt or a live conversational excerpt: natural as it may sound (at least when well acted--indeed, things can sound unnaturally rehearsed or scripted, if not well acted.), in fact it's more expressive than much off the cuff talk, that's not how most of our daily conversations go. Come to think of it, most speeches in speech class sound 'rehearsed' but then, it's a speech class, not an acting class, so sounding rehearsed isn't a problem, as it's much better than sounding unprepared. But if you have a prodigy in your class, you might hear one who manages, like a stand up comedian, to actually sound conversational, as if you could interrupt them and they could fluidly change course with no problem, like they hadn't rehearsed and they just somehow speak this smoothly all the time. Acting is generally practicing until it doesn't sound practiced--that's why I think poor actors suffer so much on 'normal' scenes even if they're not overacting. I don't think bad voice actors practice, I think they go in and it's just a line they say off a script, maybe they've memorized it, but they haven't put in the time it takes to sound natural, especially for the character rather than the actor themselves. I'm an absolutely terrible actor and elocutor, so I sympathize. Fortunately nobody is paying me to act, or speak publicly. And I'm not just picking on English dubs even though I think this is a consistent problem across the board with them--there have been Japanese voice actors I've thought were just phoning it in like that sometimes---even voice actors I greatly enjoy have given performances I've been unimpressed with. "You can't just use the character's voice and say the line and call it a day, you bastards!"
I recommend classes if they're available. They just aren't in my area. Once you get the basics, I think you can structure your own lesson plans, and identify things you don't understand but see a lot to analyze. You obviously can't immerse yourself like you can with a teacher or classroom, which is the method of language teaching I see most often, a well researched method based on trying to recreate the critical period. But I'm way past that brain age, so rather than "get the habits, make sense of them later" (which is how we learn our native languages--we don't know what a subject or an object is, but we know reflexively when to use I/he/she vs. me/him/her), I'm happier with "make sense of it, then make it a habit" myself. I'm not naturally intelligent so analytic learning, which is just applying familiar basic logical systems to a problem until it's broken down into something coherent and small and familiar, works better for me than rehearsal or other unfamiliar things smarter folk acclimate more quickly towards. It's kind of like how translation is much easier than speaking the language in question.
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I wish that the translating habits of the 90's had stayed, then. Maybe they'll start making a comeback. If some start doing cultural notes on a strategically selected anime, like say if Bleach resumes (and I hope it does) and it suddenly gets awesome cultural notes, I think the trend would spread because a lot of people would watch it and then subsequently comment and blog about it. Whereas some translators could be doing awesome cultural notes but the anime they're doing it for is really underground and it - as well as the notes - would never reach a larger audience and the internet mainstream.
I think the acceptablility of dubs would depend on age. When I was little, I used to watch Naruto all the time, subbed, and that actually helped me learn English and become a fast reader (I was a pretentious little kid), so that is an example of how subs can encourage growth in a child. But if the kid is so young that the only thing they watch the movie for is the pictures and bright colors, and they really to improve their speaking English, then dubs wouldn't be so bad because any cultural nuances that a sub would preserve would be lost on them, and it would improve their speech too. First priority is learning how to speak, next it's time to get serious with subs. I realize it's easy for me to say that dubs can't be all that bad sometimes since I don't have the chance to understand what they're saying just by hearing it; I would definitely be angry too, if I heard one thing and saw it being translated as something else. It would turn me off of dubs forever.
Russian dubs are usually inaccurate, so even if you can still hear the intonations of the original behind the dubbing, the meaning is still often wrong. Still sticking with the Cars 2 example, one time Lightning McQueen said something like "I think you're great" to his Porsche girlfriend and then a split second later, in fast Russian: "Stay with me". C'mon, dubbers! They obviously didn't even try. The problem with voiceover dubs is usually the inaccuracy most of all. Chances are, if they didn't take the time to remove the original voices, they probably won't take a lot of time to make an accurate translation either. So then you get inflections, but not accuracy...why can't us viewers have good things? Still, it's better than nothing, and one thing I am sure about is everyone should get a chance to experience Baccano!.
Practice is a big part of being a voice actor in my opinion, and something that is mandatory. I mean, it's a way to get your job done, and done well. Voice acting is a career, so one would be expected to take it seriously and make their performance as good as possible, and practice can't harm anything. You can't even avoid the necessity of it by reading directly off of a script; when people read off of something, especially for the first or second time, it sounds different from regular speech; someone fluent in that language could easily tell they're reading. Even if something is read, practice is still necessary to put expression and variety into the voice, which are also essential in daily conversation. Some people are better at vocal variety and reading fluency than others, but people who aren't just have to make do with practicing a lot, which will often make them even better than talented people, who may slack off thinking that they'll sound good just winging it. If you can't do anything else, at least practice right? On all of my past speeches, the feedback was 'I could tell you practiced!' which I do in front of the mirror and it's really awkward. But voice actors have it really tough; it's hard to find a balance between over-acting and sounding monotonous. Some could try to sound really natural, but they deaden their vocal expression so much that it doesn't give life to the character at all--others overcompensate too far into the other direction. I think the latter is the lesser of two evils because at least you can tell they're trying.
I was going to take Japanese classes outside of school but not enough people signed up and they were canceled! I was so disappointed because I'm a audio/visual learner, so it's a lot easier for me to pick up new material if it's taught to me (unless the teacher really sucks). My learning style is a lot like yours; I prefer structure and just plain memorization when necessary over hectic immersion you can sometimes get. You're right, I guess I could try organizing a schedule for myself and making some lesson plans based off of the textbook I have; it's a really good, coherent textbook but the thing is that I just have to sit down and force myself to plow through. Once I get going, I go all the way...but I have to get going first. Also cumulative reviews sometimes so I don't forget previous material.
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There will be more approval in mainstream, non-noted translations, so even the nerd-core level fans who can and do translate will, to feed their own egos, keep subs mainstream. In fact, there's a bonus in that it is generally easier to go with 'feel' over accuracy, and also the ego bonus of having people applaud choices that are more like your creative work than they are a translation. "That's not accurate but it's hilarious/cool, so I love it and will call it a good translation because it moves me!" validates a loose translator both because it's generally preferred and because it's their creative writing work, rather than some else's work they're translating, being praised. As good as it feels to have someone like something you like, having them like something you do is going to feel better.
Add to that that mainstream subs are thus more available, and you have many fans who have those as their only recourse, no matter how nerdcore their inclinations may be; the idea that what they're trying to obsess deeply into isn't the real thing hurts. Thus even the more nerd-habit inclined fans who would otherwise seek accuracy can be swept up into it. "I'm this into this series, I love it this much, I obsess over minor details, but the version I know, likely the only version available to me or most easily available to me first, is inaccurate or essentially fanon? No. No, I'm going to get defensive of this version now, to protect my time and emotional investments. I will continue to find other misapprehensions about the canon, characters, etc. incorrect and frustrating. Screw consistent logic, I enjoyed *this* set of inaccuracies and I'm going to fall back on the 'opinions, man' view that since I enjoyed these inaccuracies, they're acceptable as canon."
So since on a fan level I don't see a reason for it to trend back to accuracy, I don't anticipate it on a professional level, either.
As for dubs for kids, if it's important for kids to learn to speak a language, I feel the same way I do about people who just want their entertainment in their own language: why not plop them down in front of something that's originally writ for and in that language? There's probably an endless supply of interesting things for any age group in just about any living language.
Saying they can tell you practiced is definitely praise for a speech! It really doesn't come naturally, to remove the fillers and conversational particles from speech. Speech is much more frequently about something social than it is to actually convey information; removing those 'social' markers in order to honestly hone in on the message is tough! But, fictional dialogue exists purely to convey information; in fictional context it may be social--and in fact to sound like realistic dialogue, it must be written that way. That puts fictional dialogue, both its writers and actors, in a very interesting spot: they have to hone it to make it more effective at conveying pure information, which is unnatural for a conversation. Some of that information is about the characters more than what they're saying--the difference between how Seishin talks with Toshio (that is to say, pretty much exactly like Toshio) and how he talks with the Yano mother-daughter pair (much, much more formal---I hope that carried in translation) is as much 'information that must be conveyed to the audience' as is any of the stuff he talks about with either Toshio or the Yanos. But the writing/performance is not a conversation with the audience; the audience has no response and the writer/actor is working to convey that message the same way you are to a mirror when practicing. It's awkward, and doing it really well means adding in an artificial version of what you've removed--those social particles of uhm, you know, etc.
It reminds me of the Ne Sa Yo movement; in Japan, there was a push in the 1960s in Japan to keep children from using the ne, sa and yo particles which serve many of the same interactional purposes of those English uh, uhm, you know, like, etc. fillers. Interestingly, kids started holding out the end of "proper" sentences in the tone of those lost, now unspoken particles (and of course, they also continued to use them in more free environments). Those fillers we work so hard to avoid aren't purely the effects of a tongue faster than the mind, they serve complicated social/interactional purposes. Even we don't fully understand them in our own native languages, but I assure you, if they served no purpose, we'd have developed past them, the same way I think most of us can type off long, correct sentences we could never dream of speaking so fluidly off the tongue with the same ease. It's a context in which our brain is less focused on interaction; written communication is less interactive, even with near-immediate feedback like IMs and texts; you're not interacting *while* writing the new message.
Giving a speech on such a topic would be incredibly meta. I almost wish I could afford to be in Toastmasters or were still in school for speech classes...
I think I've recommended Anki flash cards before, right? It forces cumulative reviews by pulling up old stuff; if you still got it, it won't pull it up again for a long time. Miss it, it'll throw it back into your new randomizer until you get it again as naturally as when you had just learned it. It's really very helpful.
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I agree that watching anime is more widespread, but I still wouldn't call it mainstream! In my experience, people talk about it like something all the weird kids do, so I don't normally let on that I watch it. When I do though, people are surprised, "I never would have thought YOU as an anime fan!" which is kind of surprising for me too because I'm so dorky I don't know why people wouldn't think I was. It's sad that revealing that you do drugs, for instance, is more socially acceptable than revealing that you're a fan. Still, I think that a successful fansub with cultural notes that is seen by a lot of people would have the potential to jump start accuracy; then people would go to other fansub groups and be like "Did you see what did? With the cultural notes? That was awesome. Do that too!" or other fansub groups would see it and say "That's a good idea, why don't we do that?" But like you said, the audience would need to be people who are in it for the accuracy, so some current fans who are there just for fanservice or something wouldn't cut it. Approval-seeking isn't necessarily bad though! In real life, seeking approval can also be a good trait especially if you're collaborating at work or something and you want to make sure that something you've done works with everyone else in the team. Nobody likes the "screw everyone, we're doing it my way" guy. Same with translators. I think it's important to ask the readers' input because there's a good chance they'd have good ones. Also, ya know, it'll keep the readers happy. Be glad that you don't have very nitpicky readers!
I never watch gag subs or anything, but if I did I wouldn't use them as replacements for the real thing or accept anything there as canon. I guess there are people who do that, aren't there? Well, eh, there's dumb people everywhere. I would rather have inaccurate mainstream subs than nothing at all though, as bad as that might sound. It's not a good feeling knowing that all the shows I'm enjoying, through I'm enjoying them with, aren't the real thing, and my outlook on it can be totally false. That's another good reason for me to start up my Japanese again (I should stop procrastinating already D:) But even if I get to the point where I can somewhat understand the words spoken, I won't know the cultural connotations or hidden meanings so I don't know if my experience will be more accurate than with subs. It'll get better in time though of course but I'm not the most patient person.
I actually have a speech coming up! For my final exam for that class all I have to do is present a speech...and then I'm done forever, thank gawd! But I think that taking some sort of course in speech is a good idea for everybody. I mean, sometime in everyone's life they'll have to do something that involves speaking to an audience, and some basic skill are better than nothing at all--even better is practice. We can imagine verbal speech as a scale; on one end there's day to day speech that you'd use with your buddies and on the other end it's the super formal stuff used for speeches and such. Ideally, the complexity of speech patterns would increase as you go to the speech end of the scale, but the natural factor will remain the same. Like during job interviews it's kind of confusing because on one hand you want to be professional but on the other hand you need to seem open and friendly: somebody others can work with. Or at least that's the impression I got when I did mine, but I work in retail and a lot of it is working as a team so they would need someone who's a good teammate. It probably varies from job to job, but a lot of workplaces in America prefer to hire people not only based on creds, but also their amiability. They want someone who would be nice to their coworkers and, if it's a job that involves working with the public, someone who's nice to the customers too. After all, America is a pretty polite nation. Maybe not as polite as Japan, but it is when compared to Eastern Europe where nice employees are hard to come by. I think it's just a cultural thing; that's always how it was there.
The Ne Sa Yo movement is an interesting venture. I can totally relate to it too! When I'm giving any speeches, when I feel a 'like' or 'uhh' coming on, I usually just pause to let my brain catch up, or drag out the word that comes before it. So like the Japanese kids, I'm also replacing the extra particles instead of removing them altogether. I agree, the little particles go hand in hand with nonverbal communication, and also add extra meaning to the sentence apart from what is literally said. That's why face to face communication can't be truly replaced by texting and IMing and stuff, and also it creates that effect when a public speaker seems really distant. You have to hold yourself kind of stiff, and that really cuts down on nonverbal communication. I think that's why we wouldn't really want to talk in speeches in day to day life anyway--there'd be less personal connection and we'd just sound really aloof. Like for example when a person is talking, they always look for visual cues and responses from their companion to indicate how they should continue. A rehearsed speaker would just plow through, and that would put a lot of people off.
Unfortunately in my class we can't give speeches on a custom topic so you probably wouldn't want to be in it! Well, you could always record yourself and if you really want to get the message out, post it on YouTube. I would Favorite it and maybe even, if I was feeling extremely generous, give it a thumbs up.
I didn't let the Anki suggestion go in one ear and out another; I installed it! I also made several decks for reviewing vocabulary from the textbook that I have. It's still kind of confusing to use, but it's a nice idea. As I will hopefully keep plowing through my Japanese, it'll probably come in more handy. Besides, there's a user guide and everything; there's no reason for me to lose to technology. It kind of reminds me of this app I used to learn hiragana and katakana; it was the same thing, where it kept showing me cards I had missed before until I mastered them. I learned pretty fast, I wish one could learn kanji as easy as that..
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(Anonymous) 2016-10-13 10:50 pm (UTC)(link)